D&D 5E Fighting Style Balance: Offense vs. Defense

[Garthanos]

I imagine if enemies focus fire on players that players will quickly find ways to spread them out (typically by using melee warriors as body blockers - OA's make a good threat).

Characters only able to make 1 OA are so much less of a threat that was at least part of why the discussion of enabling more OA were brought up in I guess another thread ... these things all interact. I wanted flanking but getting into flank seems umm less difficult with only one OA is possible.

Combatants that can attack every enemy adjacent also discourage focus fire. This was a feature of the coolest Fighter moves in 4e.

Rally is really good. If you use all your superiority dice on it then you are able to generate 30 temp hp with it per short rest. I

Boring spamistry aside the numbers are going to be compared to spending every attack on a riposte because your armor is awesome and yeah they miss you all the time. /just saying.
And yes Rally isn't far behind numerically it seems perceieved as farther behind by some than it is... and it may relate to the intrinsic benefit of an enemy being dead one round faster.

it also has strong synergy with the inspiring leader feat.

Seems like poor synergy since they do not stack nor benefit one another at all... the only way in which i see synergy as they both encourage investment in Charisma... which ahem kind of a dump stat without something supporting it. And there is the other thing... you have more hit points or deal more damage if you do not... so you are trading that out too.

 

[Garthanos]

The nice thing about these temp hp is that they can be distributed to just one character round after round if he's the one being targeted.

Being able to shore up where it is needed is an advantage indeed AND that is a bit better than ripostes which cannot be focus fired... that is a good point.

Parry provides more damage mitigation because your more likely to max dex first

For a Dex fighter but a Strength focused one? I was thinking allowing Shield parry based on Strength.

and it doesnt cost your bonus action, but the cost of your reaction to use it potentially makes you much less sticky with OA's

Reaction is a big cost all over the place... It could be competitive with other defender style elements by allowing you to parry attacks against an adjacent ally. i have seen evidence that is kind of a realistic option even.

 

[FrogReaver]

Characters only able to make 1 OA are so much less of a threat that was at least part of why the discussion of enabling more OA were brought up in I guess another thread ... these things all interact. I wanted flanking but getting into flank seems umm less difficult with only one OA is possible.

I'm glad that they didn't make OA's so significant that an enemy would never risk one to position itself or attack a different target.

Combatants that can attack every enemy adjacent also discourage focus fire. This was a feature of the coolest Fighter moves in 4e.

Strangely - they gave those abilities to the hunter ranger in 5e.

Boring spamistry aside the numbers are going to be compared to spending every attack on a riposte because your armor is awesome and yeah they miss you all the time. /just saying.

Riposte has a lot of downsides compared to more "normal" maneuvers. I'm not sure that when it's downsides are factored in that it's actually any more impressive than them. 2 of the biggest ones:

1. Tactically it drives enemies away from what is likely the highest AC PC. If attacking you yields the same results as taking an OA to move away...

2. It's not front loaded damage

And yes Rally isn't far behind numerically it seems perceieved as farther behind by some than it is... and it may relate to the intrinsic benefit of an enemy being dead one round faster.

Ideally you have at least an offensive and defensive maneuver. Ideally you use the proper one that the situation dictates.

Seems like poor synergy since they do not stack nor benefit one another at all... the only way in which i see synergy as they both encourage investment in Charisma... which ahem kind of a dump stat without something supporting it. And there is the other thing... you have more hit points or deal more damage if you do not... so you are trading that out too.

Inspiring leader gives everyone temp hp at the start of the day. Rally allows you to top the guy off each round that's being focused on.

 

[FrogReaver]

Being able to shore up where it is needed is an advantage indeed AND that is a bit better than ripostes which cannot be focus fired... that is a good point.

For a Dex fighter but a Strength focused one? I was thinking allowing Shield parry based on Strength.

If you don't invest in dex or cha then don't use rally or parry.

Reaction is a big cost all over the place... It could be competitive with other defender style elements by allowing you to parry attacks against an adjacent ally. i have seen evidence that is kind of a realistic option even.

If you wanted to make parry better then allow you to parry attacks against adjacent allies with it as well.

 

[FrogReaver]

Defensive abilities that only help the PC and cannot help allies are always going to be inferior to more offense abilities that allies can use to focus fire. It's the lack of focus fire on the most tactically advantageous enemy/ally that make defensive abilities worse than offensive ones in 5e.

 

[Garthanos]

If you don't invest in dex or cha then don't use rally or parry.

Sure but you see how buffing CHA has a cost of its own get 16 pulled it out of somewhere.
Plus I think a shield user doing blocking parries with strength is flavorful.

If you wanted to make parry better then ally you to parry attacks against adjacent allies with it as well.

Yup I think that is on my list of good tweaks its more "versatile" about the kind of characters its valuable for then.

 

[Garthanos]

Defensive abilities that only help the PC and cannot help allies are always going to be inferior to more offense abilities that allies can use to focus fire. It's the lack of focus fire on the most tactically advantageous enemy/ally that make defensive abilities worse than offensive ones in 5e.

Nods yeh that does make the surgical benefit of Rally more obvious. And the modification of Parry hit home.

And riposte is not entirely controllable for Focus Fire purposes but it often will be. Assuming the one focused on is retaliating

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure but you see how buffing CHA has a cost of its own get 16 pulled it out of somewhere.

A Variant humans can do a 16, 8, 14, 8, 10, 16
A Variant human could instead do 16, 8, 16, 8, 10, 14

(The 14 could be put anywhere but there's not a particularly more useful tertiary stat than charisma).

In other words, I don't actually need to lower con for more charisma at all but I believed it was advantageous to do so when I was going to have to abilities keying of charisma.

Plus I think a shield user doing blocking parries with strength is flavorful.

No issue here.

 

[Garthanos]

Parry also has problems in comparison to Rally even if you can parry an attack against an adjacent ally... in that you cannot necessarily be adjacent to help the ally who needs it right when its needed.

 

[FrogReaver]

Parry also has problems in comparison to Rally even if you can parry an attack against an adjacent ally... in that you cannot necessarily be adjacent to help the ally who needs it right when its needed.

Yes but, the numbers are easier to get higher on it since it keys off dex. That's not a perfect tradeoff, but it's fair enough IMO.