Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
So instead of poopooing a good idea and the most constructive post to date, how about suggest some modifications you think will make it more fair.
D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class
- Thread starter Sword of Spirit
- Start date
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
If this was a (+) thread for a new fan-created psion class, you'd be correct in your point. As it is, it was freely offered for criticism, and I gave fair criticism as to where it's going past the power levels of other classes. I'm not going to guess which of those features the creator feels is critical to the class, so I can't really offer ways to correct the class without wild guessing. Personally, I don't see much to salvage from the draft as it's a near perfect recreation of the wizard (including arcane recovery and schools of magic, just renamed). If that's what you want, you can get there with just subclass design. The real kicker is the addition of the psionic augments, which are way to powerful and too often usable and come online too soon. If you want to address the class, make it different from a wizard or trade major features of the wizard out for the augments. Before that call is made, there's little to do because it would require guessing which way the design wants to go before gutting class features.
I'd probably use the Warlock chassis to build a Psion if I weren't making a chassis from scratch. Limited spell slots is fine when you have limited spells to pick from, you can have other abilities as at-will/per day invocations, and you can use the patrons as schools to further flavor different kinds of disciplines.
Hmm, I like that enough to spitball a little more. Three patrons is three subclasses, so maybe Mentalist, Metabolic Warrior, and Elementalist, roughly indexing Mind affecting/clairsentience, body mods/portation, and summoning/force projection. Each comes with some bespoke invocations and spells, and the general invocations cover more general psionic abilities and metapsionics. Generally speaking, lower level abilities across the disciplines could be generally available and the higher powered ones would be 'patron' specific. Huh, I like a fair bit actually.
Hmm, I like that enough to spitball a little more. Three patrons is three subclasses, so maybe Mentalist, Metabolic Warrior, and Elementalist, roughly indexing Mind affecting/clairsentience, body mods/portation, and summoning/force projection. Each comes with some bespoke invocations and spells, and the general invocations cover more general psionic abilities and metapsionics. Generally speaking, lower level abilities across the disciplines could be generally available and the higher powered ones would be 'patron' specific. Huh, I like a fair bit actually.
Chaosmancer
Legend
I read Ovinomancer's critique as fairly well thought out and constructive. Definetly more than "poopooing"
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Just complaining does not equal constructive, no matter how well thought out. Constructive criticism comes with advice on how to fix it.
Ovinomancer
No flips for you!
No, it doesn't. It can, but it can also be just fair criticism that points out not just where something may be wrong, but how it's wrong. I provided very clear criticism on the issues in the class build, pointing out details often. That's constructive criticism because it provides feedback that can be used to address issues. What you want to add is advice, but that's just advice.
G
Guest 6801328
Guest
And "complaining" is not a synonym for "criticism".
Chaosmancer
Legend
Like Ovinomancer said, no, it does not necessarily come with fixes for the criticisms.
Saying "I hate it" is just complaining.
Saying, "This is a rebuild of the wizard, with bonuses, putting the class above the curve of balance since it is simply buffing an existing class" is constructive criticism, because not only does it critique, but it gives a clear picture of why the critique was given and points out the issues that need addressed.
They could have given advice on fixing it, but since the issue seems to start with the very foundation of the class, and the original author has not responded asking for advice, they did not provide more than their critique.
Todd Roybark
Hero
Besides Everyone poopoos 
There is even a book!
There is even a book!
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Thanks for the feedback folks!
First, I'm going to try to make explicit some points about psionics in D&D that I think have been bandied around in this and other threads. Then I'm going to provide some design notes for context on that draft.
"D&D Psionics"
I've noticed in the discussion that not everyone is on board with what I (and I think at least some of the others coming from the same perspective) am taking as a basic axiom of D&D: D&D Psionics (and to a lesser extent the D&D Psion) exist as uniquely identifiable elements of the Worlds of D&D. When we're discussing psionics in D&D, I'm not addressing the merit of adding a psychic class to 5e D&D, or what deep metaphysical differences might exist between psychics and mages, or what role they might play in a story, or whether it makes sense to shoot fireballs from your eyes and call it "not magic". No. What I'm addressing is that every edition of D&D (except the Basic versions) has included a form of psionics that features certain consistent traits. D&D Psionics is a thing now, with its own identity and defining traits; it is more than just psionics in D&D. I am assuming in everything that I say that we are talking about D&D Psionics and D&D Psions and their representation in 5e. Tradition and continuity isn't just relevent in this context, it is defining.
There are at least three consistent core identifying traits of D&D Psionics:
1) The power comes from within the psyche of the practioner, not from arcane, divine, or other external magical sources.
2) This power does not need words, gestures, or physical components to manifest.
3) Psionics are powered by a pool of points that replenish over time.
Other less core (or more specific) traits exist and serve to create an interesting overall package, but those are the most clear, consistent, and basic of traits. If you change one of those three, it's kind of hard to say you have D&D Psionics anymore.
Now, I know that some people are thinking, "That sounds like a rather boring set of traits to base a major game element on." My response is that your could reduce most D&D elements to some similarly boring identifying traits. The reason I'm digging down to this level is because it's important that you have that boring core in order to make something interesting and have it still be D&D Psionics rather than something else.
Assertion: D&D Psionics are an enduring and defining aspect of the Worlds of D&D, and their 5e presentation should continue to be in accord with their consistent identifying traits. We already have a Monster Manual and other books that have presented D&D Psionics in 5e, and the focus now is mainly on how (and if) to present player options, such as subclasses and the D&D Psion.
On to my sample simple Psion.
Premise: I want to demonstrate that WotC could make a simple 5e Psion that would be close enough to what people want from a D&D Psion to work for most people who would like an official Psion class. I also want to demonstrate that such a class can be designed with self-contained rules sufficient to represent the essence of a D&D Psion without the need for creating expansive new game systems. The class should appeal to both fans of the D&D Psion and to those who are fine with the concept of a psion (either D&D Psion or just psychic D&D person) but don't want a bunch of new rules in their game just to have it.
Methodology: The class should present the core identifying traits of D&D Psionics and attempt to capture the feel and function of the D&D Psion in a manner that meshes as seemlessly as possible with 5e mechanics and assumptions. I'm explictly avoiding innovations, except insofar as they are effective and simple ways to include elements of D&D Psionics or the D&D Psion.
Psionic Manifestation: This is the meat of the "psionics system" right here in a page and a half. It's the work horse of bringing psionic manifestation into a 5e D&D class. It's mechanically a variant of the Spellcasting trait (and I need to write up how it interacts with multi-classing). It's also an indication of why you couldn't just represent the D&D Psion with a subclass, because it needs to replace the standard Spellcasting trait with something like this that removes the capability to perform magic in standard ways.
Psionic Replenishment: This is specifically to hearken to the feel of over-time point replenishment (other than just overnight) that was found in editions other than 3e. Mechanically, if you gain your assumed 2 short rests it is twice as good as Arcane Recovery or Sorcery Points. With a standard alotment spell-slot using full-caster setup, this seemed like the easiest way to highlight that element.
Psionic Augments: This one has been really hard to work with. I like putting more short rest mechanics into the class, because it highlights some of the non-3e consistent elements. I've put together some options that made sense, but the details have been tricky. Having the resource you spend be Augments, but the effects you activate with them be Psionic Focus options is currently messy looking to me, but I think there's something there. Every time I just want to make it be one or the other (either it's all augment or all psionic focus) it feels off, and I end up leaving it. I considered having augment power two different sorts of things, much like how a paladin can use spell slots for spells or smites, and while you were limited to one Psionic Focus effect at a time, you could also augment it the other way. Right now I don't have enough features to make that necessary. I've also considered having each subclass provide a Psionic Focus option at some point. That's still open with the mostly blank subclass feature lists. It's worth pointing out that psionic augments could apply to things other than manifesting psionic spells. There could be other cool abilities that are activated with augments. This is intended to be the secondary dynamic choice feature of the class (the primary being which power/spell to manifest/cast).
Subclasses: I'd be willing to drop this down to 3 subclasses, and think it might actually be a bit cleaner that way. I'd have to experiment to see if too much is lost doing that. One of the oddities is that metacreativity and psychometabolism would be part of the same subclass, which creates an interesting effect super-category. There are pros and cons to going with either 6 or 3.
Spell List: I'm very flexible on this. I basically did two things: 1) Referenced the 3.5e psion list from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and added the spells that seemed to best represent those powers. 2) Added other spells that seem to fit a core competency (like telepathic things) of psions. The spell list is currently significantly smaller than the sorcerer, and a lot smaller than wizard. It is also more limited than either of those in the sorts of things it does. I'm not strongly attached to the choices here, as long as it maintains core D&D Psionic competencies. I resisted the urge to limit a bunch of beneficial spells to "self only", in favor of including Inner Strength in Psionic Manifestation, because it fits 5e philosophy better. I'm hoping the Inner Power will actually be a break even value feature because players will be less likely to want to waste the benefit from Inner Power by using those spells on others, and the double duration benefit probably isn't as good as using those spells on others most of the time. For new psionic spells to fill in the big holes, I really do mean there only need to be a few. I'd say 3 or 4 would probably do it.
Feature Order: Always a tough call. Discipline, Replenishment, and Augments are all fighting to come online at once, but they need to be spaced out over those first three levels. I settled on the current order because I figured that Replenishment might be bad for balance at 1st level, as well as the Augment Psionic Spell option. I decided that Replenishment shouldn't wait long though, so that put Augment at 3rd level. If I had ways of balancing these differently, I might adjust the order, because I don't think that Discipline necessarily needs to happen at 1st level. I get the feeling that there are probably people who think it does though (to allow someone to start with unlimited telepathy for instance), which was one influence on me putting it there.
I briefly mentioned non-core traits of D&D Psionics above. Here are a few elements that have been a part of D&D Psionics in some editions, but have not been universal, along with some of my thoughts on how they could fit in 5e:
-Not Magic. In some editions psionics was explicitly not magic, while it others it explicitly was. For 5e I recommend a middle ground where it mechanically is magical, but its metaphysical nature is debatable from a more in-character perspective.
-Far Realms and Aberrations, oh my! While certain aberrations have always had psionic abilities, and certain aberrations in certain editions have been connected with a plane called the Far Realm, a direct connection between psionics and the Far Realm, or psionics and aberrations is not a consistent part of the lore. I recommend leaving this undefined so it can work with differnet settings without calling Cthulu where he doesn't belong.
-Crystals and Tatoos. These sorts of trappings have been prominant at times, but not universal. I recommend using them as a default when physical trappings are needed for something, but not finding ways to use them just to use them.
-Disciplines. The idea of different fields of study akin to schools appeared in 3.0e and lasted into 4e, though 1e and 2e did it differently. I'm defaulting to using them similar to 3.5e, but I'm not opposed to an alternative method.
I'll try to respond to specific posts later.
First, I'm going to try to make explicit some points about psionics in D&D that I think have been bandied around in this and other threads. Then I'm going to provide some design notes for context on that draft.
"D&D Psionics"
I've noticed in the discussion that not everyone is on board with what I (and I think at least some of the others coming from the same perspective) am taking as a basic axiom of D&D: D&D Psionics (and to a lesser extent the D&D Psion) exist as uniquely identifiable elements of the Worlds of D&D. When we're discussing psionics in D&D, I'm not addressing the merit of adding a psychic class to 5e D&D, or what deep metaphysical differences might exist between psychics and mages, or what role they might play in a story, or whether it makes sense to shoot fireballs from your eyes and call it "not magic". No. What I'm addressing is that every edition of D&D (except the Basic versions) has included a form of psionics that features certain consistent traits. D&D Psionics is a thing now, with its own identity and defining traits; it is more than just psionics in D&D. I am assuming in everything that I say that we are talking about D&D Psionics and D&D Psions and their representation in 5e. Tradition and continuity isn't just relevent in this context, it is defining.
There are at least three consistent core identifying traits of D&D Psionics:
1) The power comes from within the psyche of the practioner, not from arcane, divine, or other external magical sources.
2) This power does not need words, gestures, or physical components to manifest.
3) Psionics are powered by a pool of points that replenish over time.
Other less core (or more specific) traits exist and serve to create an interesting overall package, but those are the most clear, consistent, and basic of traits. If you change one of those three, it's kind of hard to say you have D&D Psionics anymore.
Now, I know that some people are thinking, "That sounds like a rather boring set of traits to base a major game element on." My response is that your could reduce most D&D elements to some similarly boring identifying traits. The reason I'm digging down to this level is because it's important that you have that boring core in order to make something interesting and have it still be D&D Psionics rather than something else.
Assertion: D&D Psionics are an enduring and defining aspect of the Worlds of D&D, and their 5e presentation should continue to be in accord with their consistent identifying traits. We already have a Monster Manual and other books that have presented D&D Psionics in 5e, and the focus now is mainly on how (and if) to present player options, such as subclasses and the D&D Psion.
On to my sample simple Psion.
Premise: I want to demonstrate that WotC could make a simple 5e Psion that would be close enough to what people want from a D&D Psion to work for most people who would like an official Psion class. I also want to demonstrate that such a class can be designed with self-contained rules sufficient to represent the essence of a D&D Psion without the need for creating expansive new game systems. The class should appeal to both fans of the D&D Psion and to those who are fine with the concept of a psion (either D&D Psion or just psychic D&D person) but don't want a bunch of new rules in their game just to have it.
Methodology: The class should present the core identifying traits of D&D Psionics and attempt to capture the feel and function of the D&D Psion in a manner that meshes as seemlessly as possible with 5e mechanics and assumptions. I'm explictly avoiding innovations, except insofar as they are effective and simple ways to include elements of D&D Psionics or the D&D Psion.
Psionic Manifestation: This is the meat of the "psionics system" right here in a page and a half. It's the work horse of bringing psionic manifestation into a 5e D&D class. It's mechanically a variant of the Spellcasting trait (and I need to write up how it interacts with multi-classing). It's also an indication of why you couldn't just represent the D&D Psion with a subclass, because it needs to replace the standard Spellcasting trait with something like this that removes the capability to perform magic in standard ways.
Psionic Replenishment: This is specifically to hearken to the feel of over-time point replenishment (other than just overnight) that was found in editions other than 3e. Mechanically, if you gain your assumed 2 short rests it is twice as good as Arcane Recovery or Sorcery Points. With a standard alotment spell-slot using full-caster setup, this seemed like the easiest way to highlight that element.
Psionic Augments: This one has been really hard to work with. I like putting more short rest mechanics into the class, because it highlights some of the non-3e consistent elements. I've put together some options that made sense, but the details have been tricky. Having the resource you spend be Augments, but the effects you activate with them be Psionic Focus options is currently messy looking to me, but I think there's something there. Every time I just want to make it be one or the other (either it's all augment or all psionic focus) it feels off, and I end up leaving it. I considered having augment power two different sorts of things, much like how a paladin can use spell slots for spells or smites, and while you were limited to one Psionic Focus effect at a time, you could also augment it the other way. Right now I don't have enough features to make that necessary. I've also considered having each subclass provide a Psionic Focus option at some point. That's still open with the mostly blank subclass feature lists. It's worth pointing out that psionic augments could apply to things other than manifesting psionic spells. There could be other cool abilities that are activated with augments. This is intended to be the secondary dynamic choice feature of the class (the primary being which power/spell to manifest/cast).
Subclasses: I'd be willing to drop this down to 3 subclasses, and think it might actually be a bit cleaner that way. I'd have to experiment to see if too much is lost doing that. One of the oddities is that metacreativity and psychometabolism would be part of the same subclass, which creates an interesting effect super-category. There are pros and cons to going with either 6 or 3.
Spell List: I'm very flexible on this. I basically did two things: 1) Referenced the 3.5e psion list from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and added the spells that seemed to best represent those powers. 2) Added other spells that seem to fit a core competency (like telepathic things) of psions. The spell list is currently significantly smaller than the sorcerer, and a lot smaller than wizard. It is also more limited than either of those in the sorts of things it does. I'm not strongly attached to the choices here, as long as it maintains core D&D Psionic competencies. I resisted the urge to limit a bunch of beneficial spells to "self only", in favor of including Inner Strength in Psionic Manifestation, because it fits 5e philosophy better. I'm hoping the Inner Power will actually be a break even value feature because players will be less likely to want to waste the benefit from Inner Power by using those spells on others, and the double duration benefit probably isn't as good as using those spells on others most of the time. For new psionic spells to fill in the big holes, I really do mean there only need to be a few. I'd say 3 or 4 would probably do it.
Feature Order: Always a tough call. Discipline, Replenishment, and Augments are all fighting to come online at once, but they need to be spaced out over those first three levels. I settled on the current order because I figured that Replenishment might be bad for balance at 1st level, as well as the Augment Psionic Spell option. I decided that Replenishment shouldn't wait long though, so that put Augment at 3rd level. If I had ways of balancing these differently, I might adjust the order, because I don't think that Discipline necessarily needs to happen at 1st level. I get the feeling that there are probably people who think it does though (to allow someone to start with unlimited telepathy for instance), which was one influence on me putting it there.
I briefly mentioned non-core traits of D&D Psionics above. Here are a few elements that have been a part of D&D Psionics in some editions, but have not been universal, along with some of my thoughts on how they could fit in 5e:
-Not Magic. In some editions psionics was explicitly not magic, while it others it explicitly was. For 5e I recommend a middle ground where it mechanically is magical, but its metaphysical nature is debatable from a more in-character perspective.
-Far Realms and Aberrations, oh my! While certain aberrations have always had psionic abilities, and certain aberrations in certain editions have been connected with a plane called the Far Realm, a direct connection between psionics and the Far Realm, or psionics and aberrations is not a consistent part of the lore. I recommend leaving this undefined so it can work with differnet settings without calling Cthulu where he doesn't belong.
-Crystals and Tatoos. These sorts of trappings have been prominant at times, but not universal. I recommend using them as a default when physical trappings are needed for something, but not finding ways to use them just to use them.
-Disciplines. The idea of different fields of study akin to schools appeared in 3.0e and lasted into 4e, though 1e and 2e did it differently. I'm defaulting to using them similar to 3.5e, but I'm not opposed to an alternative method.
I'll try to respond to specific posts later.
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