D&D 5E New class niche?

[Cap'n Kobold]

So one thing I have noticed missing is an arcane gish type character. Yes there's various subclasses but I mean a dedicated one like an arcane paladin.

And a Sorcerer version of the blade dancer. Psions another obvious one.

Anyway im thinking some kind of tanky d12 hit dice dragon disciple based off the 3E prestige class with bits of the 4E warden and D&D next playtest Sorcerer.

Thoughts?

There are seven+ arcane gishes currently available via subclasses. The majority of these fall into the pit of having extra attack, so their playstyle generally revolves around casting a buff or two then just fighting in melee with weapon attacks or the odd cantrip.

If I was going to create a new arcane gish class, I would go with the Swordmage concept, which manifests spells through their weapon or themselves, rather than alternating casting spells and fighting like most of the current gishes. I think closer to full casting, but with a different mechanic would work better than half-progression, and I would not make extra attacks a fundamental part of the class.

For a sorceror-style gish, I wouldn't just copy bladesinger, I'd go with something closer to the playtest sorceror where the sorceror is fighting in melee by manifesting aspects of magic or their supernatural ancestry. So melee by biting/clawing/beating with wings etc rather than just hitting with a weapon like all the other gishes.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The UA one? I can look later, the actual 5.5 one, I dont know if someone has done the math.

I mean, if you're going to say X thing is obviously the best or nearly the best, I would expect that to be based on at least someone having actually run the numbers. "Best" or "nearly best" (which I would assume means 2nd place?) tend to be at least somewhat...concrete?

 

[Scribe]

I mean, if you're going to say X thing is obviously the best or nearly the best, I would expect that to be based on at least someone having actually run the numbers. "Best" or "nearly best" (which I would assume means 2nd place?) tend to be at least somewhat...concrete?

Yes multiple 'someones' ran the numbers for the UA lock.

D&D (2024) - Unearthed Arcana Playtest Packet 7 Live on D&D Beyond

Wizards of the Coast posted the seventh playtest packet for the 2024 update to Dungeons & Dragons. The new playtest packet includes updated class material for the Barbarian, Fighter, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard classes. Highlights for each class: Barbarian New Path of the World Tree...

www.enworld.org

This thread seems to have most of the discussion, but I have a meeting in a few minutes.

D&D (2024) - I like the new Warlock

I really like the new proposed Warlock class. I could have posted this in one of the various other Warlock threads but those seem very loaded down with people complaining about the changes. But this is not a "plus" thread (which I don't really believe in) so feel free to disagree here with all...

www.enworld.org

Regardless, I havent seen the math for 5.5, but the increase in investment to be a melee class as a caster, was almost certainly due to the UA performance being way too high in melee for a caster.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

For a sorceror-style gish, I wouldn't just copy bladesinger, I'd go with something closer to the playtest sorceror where the sorceror is fighting in melee by manifesting aspects of magic or their supernatural ancestry. So melee by biting/clawing/beating with wings etc rather than just hitting with a weapon like all the other gishes.

For my part, I would actually try to capitalize on the diversity of flavor present in the possibilities of a true "bloodline"-driven class.

Shadow is associated with undeath, and the "vampire" archetype is kinda neglected in 5.0. So perhaps the shadow bloodline "arcane gish" has vampire-related abilities--they start out more like the sleek, genteel noble, all suave and sexy, and by the time they're finished with their transformation, they're Nosferatu-esque horrifying monsters. On the way there, they shift from glamour to sneaking, from awe to skullduggery, a thing that lurks in the night.

Other themes worth considering: Fey, as noted earlier, since transforming into a classic "amoral danger" faerie is a neat concept; "Biblically-accurate angel" is always a good one, not least because of how eldritch angels are; Infernal could be a lot of fun, especially since devils themselves go through transformations as part of the devilish hierarchy (or is that lowerarchy? Hah!); "Clockwork" has been given some development in 5e, and connects to both modrons and inevitables; and metamorph/protean/slaad/etc., something representing raw and often terrifying chaos.

Some of these things would use claws and teeth as they transform. Others, perhaps not. I could see the Biblical angel being able to manifest a Fiery Swift Sword, for instance.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes multiple 'someones' ran the numbers for the UA lock.

D&D (2024) - Unearthed Arcana Playtest Packet 7 Live on D&D Beyond

Wizards of the Coast posted the seventh playtest packet for the 2024 update to Dungeons & Dragons. The new playtest packet includes updated class material for the Barbarian, Fighter, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard classes. Highlights for each class: Barbarian New Path of the World Tree...

www.enworld.org

This thread seems to have most of the discussion, but I have a meeting in a few minutes.

D&D (2024) - I like the new Warlock

I really like the new proposed Warlock class. I could have posted this in one of the various other Warlock threads but those seem very loaded down with people complaining about the changes. But this is not a "plus" thread (which I don't really believe in) so feel free to disagree here with all...

www.enworld.org

Regardless, I havent seen the math for 5.5, but the increase in investment to be a melee class as a caster, was almost certainly due to the UA performance being way too high in melee for a caster.

I appreciate the effort, especially as you are busy, but both of these threads are from around a year ago. As in, their last post was just over a year ago in the first case, and just under in the second. IOW, both of these were still working with the version of the Warlock that had had its unique casting mechanic completely ripped out. I would not be at all surprised if that has a significant and dramatic effect on what is worth doing.

I don't deny that spirit shroud probably needed a nerf (but I don't know if it got one yet); but going back to the old Warlock model is definitely going to change things. Having foresight as your one and only 9th level spell is, I should think, a pretty massive investment.

 

[Scribe]

I appreciate the effort, especially as you are busy, but both of these threads are from around a year ago. As in, their last post was just over a year ago in the first case, and just under in the second. IOW, both of these were still working with the version of the Warlock that had had its unique casting mechanic completely ripped out. I would not be at all surprised if that has a significant and dramatic effect on what is worth doing.

I don't deny that spirit shroud probably needed a nerf (but I don't know if it got one yet); but going back to the old Warlock model is definitely going to change things. Having foresight as your one and only 9th level spell is, I should think, a pretty massive investment.

My dude, I literally said 'UA Warlock' 'not sure on the 5.5 math'.

The 5.5 lock, with the massive pile of investment required, is BECAUSE of the UA lock being over the top, thats all I was saying.

 

[mellored]

...a ninth-level spell? Are you serious right now?

Considering fighters get 0 spells, yes. You count it towards their damage.

And if your not counting 9th level spells, then don't count the 4th Eldritch Blast.

But that one invocation gives them essentially all of the beneficial effects that they'd get from dropping three (Pact, Thirsting, whatever the third one is that gives the 3rd attack) and more, because you get four attacks from EB automatically.

From level 1-16, blade does more damage than EB, and cost more.

At level 17+, you will need a spell, feat or magic weapon to beat EB.

 

[mellored]

Then show me the numbers. Prove that its, in fact, the best or nearly-best meleer. Preferably without having to depend on a friggin' 9th level spell.

 

[Xeviat]

I legitimately think the Wielder is the best concept for an arcane fish, and not just because I helped conceptualize it. DriveThruRPG

The Wielder is the class for the likes of King Arthur, He-Man/She-Ra, and other heroes who gain their power from a magic weapon or armor. It's akin to the Warlock in that it gets power from something else, but instead of a powerful creature it's an artifact.

 

[deadman1204]

I think this is difficult because dnd has this "casters cannot be melee" thing they cannot get over. Clerics can walk around in full plate and cast spells, but wizards must wear pajamas and cannot use weapons, because logic.
As well, the action economy of 5th ed makes it harder. You'd imagine that the gish would cast a buff, but with combat only lasting 3ish rounds, thats 2/3 of the fight not attacking. Add to that concentration is poorly designed, and you can easily loose your buff before you even use it.