D&D 5E The Fighter and Arcana

[Guest 6801328]

I think it's like the difference between following a recipe and understanding how to write a recipe.

Only one of those is required to bake a pie.

Try making every recipe in Julia Child and get back to me on the ease of following recipes.

I pretty much agree with @Umbran. By which I mean "in the imaginary worlds I play in, I prefer for magic weapons to be something very, very hard to make." Not that the rules agree (or disagree) with me. It's just my preferred interpretation.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So, the dwarf/magic hammer scenario...

He doesn't need proficiency in Arcana, but he would probably at some point have to make an Intelligence (Arcana) check at some point. Note that in 5E, I had a hard time with this myself at first, the "(Arcana)" part just means add your proficiency bonus if you are proficient. Intelligence alone assumes some knowledge in pretty much everything, including the lore aspect of Arcana. How much knowledge do you have? It depends on your ability score check (the d20 roll) and your INT modifier. A INT 18 has a better chance of having learned or figured out the knowledge than an INT 10 whose proficiency bonus is only +2 or +3 and has proficiency in Arcana. Obviously having proficiency in Arcana would increase your chance of success compared to not having it and if a character planned to make magic items it would be recommended for whatever checks the DM might call for.

Now, despite my energetic responses about crafting magic items, I am not saying I agree with it or support the system presented in XGtE, and as a DM I would certainly not follow it to the letter myself.

 

[Umbran]

I pretty much agree with @Umbran. By which I mean "in the imaginary worlds I play in, I prefer for magic weapons to be something very, very hard to make." Not that the rules agree (or disagree) with me. It's just my preferred interpretation.

So, there's a bit of talking past each other, I think. SkidAce is talking about the final act of crafting, while the rest of us are taking about taking the downtime action, which has some prerequisites. We are looking at the whole path to making an item, he's looking at the final step.

As a practical matter - if you want to build a character who can reliably undertake the action, having access to the skill is called for. Much as if you create a typical Druid character, you really want to take the Nature skill. You are not strictly required to do so, but if you want to stumble over your own bad choice time after time, that's you're own fault.

 

[DND_Reborn]

He can according to the rules. The arcana checks come into play in acquiring the formula and questing for the ingredients before the crafting part. The arcana proficiency is required if the same dwarf isn't a leather worker and is assisting the leather working in crafting magical leather armor.

If the dwarven smith already knows the formula for some reason and someone else brings him the ingredients then he can make that magic hammer without arcana. That doesn't mean arcana doesn't come into play during the expected quest or related to the formula and ingredients. The basic assumption is creating an item involves a quest.

(bold added)

Just a point of semantics because you keep doing this and it might confuse players new to 5E:

It is not an "arcana check", it is an Intelligence (Arcana) check. Proficiency in Arcana improves the modifier added, but the ability check is Intelligence, not "arcana".

You keep saying how the arcana proficiency is required. It is not. Intelligence is required, which, fortunately, every PC has to some degree (I wish I could say the same about every player... j/k ).

I'm sure you get this and are probably just using "arana check" to mean Intelligence (Arcana) check, but it can be misleading to others reading the thread.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Try making every recipe in Julia Child and get back to me on the ease of following recipes.

I pretty much agree with @Umbran. By which I mean "in the imaginary worlds I play in, I prefer for magic weapons to be something very, very hard to make." Not that the rules agree (or disagree) with me. It's just my preferred interpretation.

I've never been to culinary school, but most of those seem pretty doable to me.

 

[Ashrym]

I've never been to culinary school, but most of those seem pretty doable to me.

But do you think everyone who knows how to cook knows what achiote paste or gochjang is, can recognize it, and knows how to prepare or handle it? Especially the first time? The dwarven smith knows smithing and having a recipe doesn't mean understanding what's in it. It's not like someone went ahead of the PC then conveniently processed and labelled the ingredients on the list.

Arcana proficiency is required for a few aspects of crafting even if it's not all aspects, and it's a good idea to have it if the player is looking at crafting for the quest portions regardless.

 

[DND_Reborn]

But do you think everyone who knows how to cook knows what achiote paste or gochjang is, can recognize it, and knows how to prepare or handle it? Especially the first time? The dwarven smith knows smithing and having a recipe doesn't mean understanding what's in it. It's not like someone went ahead of the PC then conveniently processed and labelled the ingredients on the list.

Arcana proficiency is required for a few aspects of crafting even if it's not all aspects, and it's a good idea to have it if the player is looking at crafting for the quest portions regardless.

First, I really wish you would refrain from statements such as "Arcana proficiency is required" when it simply isn't. You can play that way of course, but that isn't 5E's default.

Anyway, while I have no idea about those things, and even though I can cook myself, there of plenty of people who I would think--if they have interest in cooking (personally, I hate cooking...)--would.

A dwarf who has interest in crafting a magic hammer would likely know some lore (Intelligence) without having necessarily studied it extensively (proficiency in Arcana), just as a person who enjoys cooking knows some things about it without having necessarily gone to cooking school or something.

I agree, however, that the person (or dwarf) who wants to cook better would certainly benefit from extensive training.

 

[jmartkdr2]

But do you think everyone who knows how to cook knows what achiote paste or gochjang is, can recognize it, and knows how to prepare or handle it? Especially the first time? The dwarven smith knows smithing and having a recipe doesn't mean understanding what's in it. It's not like someone went ahead of the PC then conveniently processed and labelled the ingredients on the list.

Arcana proficiency is required for a few aspects of crafting even if it's not all aspects, and it's a good idea to have it if the player is looking at crafting for the quest portions regardless.

I don't know what those things are offhand, but if you hand them to me and tell me what to do with them, I can cook stuff. Does that make me a professional-grade chef?

 

[Guest 6801328]

I don't know what those things are offhand, but if you hand them to me and tell me what to do with them, I can cook stuff. Does that make me a professional-grade chef?

I think you're underestimating the difficulty.

Go try to melt some chocolate in a pan. Sounds simple, right?

Mwuhahahahahaha......

 

[Ashrym]

I don't know what those things are offhand, but if you hand them to me and tell me what to do with them, I can cook stuff. Does that make me a professional-grade chef?

You wouldn't know what those are just by seeing them on an ingredient list either. The issue in your analogy is I am not there to hand them to you. It's just the recipe telling you what to do with them. You would need to know what they are and where to find them without a store to go to and pick them up.

Just because you can cook stuff doesn't mean you can cook something you've never cooked before using a list of ingredients you don't have and cannot buy. You would need to harvest and prepare those ingredients first. Do that without knowing where to find them, how to harvest them, how to prepare them, and how to preserve them long enough to get them back to your kitchen when you don't even know what they are.

The dwarven smith example has an adventure to complete to get the ingredients. During the course of that adventure the dwarven smith will need to somehow find the ingredients and recognize them, make sure those ingredients are in a suitable condition for use, and be able to transport those ingredients in a way not to ruin them as examples of what one might expect. Proficiency in arcana is not required to make INT checks but adding that bonus improves the likelihood of successfully getting those ingredients in order to craft the item.