D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Minigiant]

Do you think changing 2-handed damage for katana from d10 to 2d4 changing things much in theme or mechanically?

Your macahuitl deals bludgeoning damage? What is the special?

I'd have given the jian rapier or longsword stats but allow piercing or slashing damage. (As I do with longswords and a lot of other weapons.)

Again, my system is not supposed to be overly complicated. The katana stats is just supposed to simulate that katanas on averageare shorter, curvier, and heavier at the tip than European longswords. So I shrunk the damage variability.

macuahuitl deals slashing damage on weapon dice that are even. This makes it a slahing weapon that can get bludgeoning magic weapon buffs.

The jian I just fudges to make a slashing rapier.

Untill there is a SBP module, I don't agree with mass dual damage types.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think if we look at the historical averages we'd find that the average weights of rapiers were mostly the bottom end of average for the longsword. If memory serves the average rapier was about 2lbs, and the average longsword was more like 3lbs. Is that what you meant by close? I think that's a pretty big difference. I wasn't talking about a small sword - those are indeed smaller though, as the name suggests.

As for style, the Rapier is pretty universally acknowledged to be suited to nimble thrusting attacks, and only in a very secondary role as a slashing weapon compared to the longsword. The idea that more strength is required to fight one handed isn't entirely off base, but I think we might want to broaden our discussion to be more about what DBW terms 'melee' rather than a duel, since we're at least trying to use this in terms of D&D. Also, one handed fighting with a longsword was an integral part of at least some schools, more common in the Italian schools than the German. Also, the overall usefulness of thrusting, as far as those schools go, indexes pretty clearly to use against opponents in plate armour, which pretty much ignores slashing type attacks.

Since we're talking about D&D here, maybe we should be talking about both one and two handed play, since that's how it's written up?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think if we look at the historical averages we'd find that the average weights of rapiers were mostly the bottom end of average for the longsword. If memory serves the average rapier was about 2lbs, and the average longsword was more like 3lbs. Is that what you meant by close? I think that's a pretty big difference. I wasn't talking about a small sword - those are indeed smaller though, as the name suggests.

As for style, the Rapier is pretty universally acknowledged to be suited to nimble thrusting attacks, and only in a very secondary role as a slashing weapon compared to the longsword. The idea that more strength is required to fight one handed isn't entirely off base, but I think we might want to broaden our discussion to be more about what DBW terms 'melee' rather than a duel, since we're at least trying to use this in terms of D&D. Also, one handed fighting with a longsword was an integral part of at least some schools, more common in the Italian schools than the German. Also, the overall usefulness of thrusting, as far as those schools go, indexes pretty clearly to use against opponents in plate armour, which pretty much ignores slashing type attacks.

Since we're talking about D&D here, maybe we should be talking about both one and two handed play, since that's how it's written up?

The Melee doesn’t model an actual skirmish. You can’t stab your foe in the face or armpit or anywhere else in a Melee.

And as for the rapier, that is a very French view of the weapon. The range of movement in other styles, particularly Spanish, is much greater.

 

[Fenris-77]

The Melee doesn’t model an actual skirmish. You can’t stab your foe in the face or armpit or anywhere else in a Melee.

And as for the rapier, that is a very French view of the weapon. The range of movement in other styles, particularly Spanish, is much greater.

Sure. What we've established is that there is a range of styles. That said, the rapier by design isn't as much of slashing weapon as it is a thrusting weapon. Styles aside, that's a fairly well established point (hah, you see what I did there...). Certainly less so than the longsword at any rate. Are you suggesting that the longsword is a less effective slashing weapon?

As for skirmish (that the word we'll use) use, I wouldn't agree that the Longsword is primarily used to thrust,. This is all pretty tangential to the main discussion though. There's enough variety in schools and historical periods that we could argue in circles all day.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think this video explains it all.


I'm not religious but listen to that you'll want to go on Crusade. Deus Vult. Gotta stop playing CK2 and EUIV.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure. What we've established is that there is a range of styles. That said, the rapier by design isn't as much of slashing weapon as it is a thrusting weapon. Styles aside, that's a fairly well established point (hah, you see what I did there...). Certainly less so than the longsword at any rate. Are you suggesting that the longsword is a less effective slashing weapon?

As for skirmish (that the word we'll use) use, I wouldn't agree that the Longsword is primarily used to thrust,. This is all pretty tangential to the main discussion though. There's enough variety in schools and historical periods that we could argue in circles all day.

I didn’t suggest either thing you’ve suggested that I...suggested.

 

[Fenris-77]

I didn’t suggest either thing you’ve suggested that I...suggested.

No you didn't, I'm trying to figure out exactly where we disagree. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, sorry if that's how it looked.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

No you didn't, I'm trying to figure out exactly where we disagree. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, sorry if that's how it looked.

My position is simply that because the longsword overlaps strongly in weight and length with the rapier (later shorter swords are short swords IMO), and is used in a sufficiently “D&D finesse” manner, that it should be finesse.

Now, anyone who is trying to reduce Dex preeminence should feel free to ignore all that, but IMO longsword are finesse.

 

[Fenris-77]

Well, making the longsword finesse is a small thing, in and of itself, it's almost identical to the rapier other than being versatile. I wouldn't do it, but I don't have any real issues with it either. The preeminence of DEX isn't going to be changed by adding a weapon to the finesse list.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

My position is simply that because the longsword overlaps strongly in weight and length with the rapier (later shorter swords are short swords IMO), and is used in a sufficiently “D&D finesse” manner, that it should be finesse.

Now, anyone who is trying to reduce Dex preeminence should feel free to ignore all that, but IMO longsword are finesse.

The way I'd do it is just introduce another type of longsword that is finesse.

Just say it has a shorter grip or something so you can't two hand it and I think balance concerns are addressed.