D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Fenris-77]

The longsword does not fit the 5e definition of finesse better than the Rapier IMO. Neither in execution nor in the physical properties of the weapon. It's a heavier weapon with a larger range of movement than the Rapier, especially wielded in one hand (although actual Medieval/Renaissance Longswords were primarily two handed weapons). I'm referring mostly to actual Medieval Longsword technique for the range of motions, since D&D doesn't get into that at all. I have fought with both weapons, and while this is entirely anecdotal, I personally found the longsword to be enormously more tiring and reliant on muscle to keep fighting with. That's not proof of anything, but it is my personal experience, and it fits with the evidence I have for how longswords were used. That's not to say that longsword combat doesn't also require speed and dexterity, because of course it does.

What we're running into here is D&D's rather artificial split of DEX and STR. Most combat techniques are very much a combination of the two, and not strictly one or the other.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The longsword does not fit the 5e definition of finesse better than the Rapier IMO. Neither in execution nor in the physical properties of the weapon. It's a heavier weapon with a larger range of movement than the Rapier, especially wielded in one hand (although actual Medieval/Renaissance Longswords were primarily two handed weapons). I'm referring mostly to actual Medieval Longsword technique for the range of motions, since D&D doesn't get into that at all. I have fought with both weapons, and while this is entirely anecdotal, I personally found the longsword to be enormously more tiring and reliant on muscle to keep fighting with. That's not proof of anything, but it is my personal experience, and it fits with the evidence I have for how longswords were used. That's not to say that longsword combat doesn't also require speed and dexterity, because of course it does.

What we're running into here is D&D's rather artificial split of DEX and STR. Most combat techniques are very much a combination of the two, and not strictly one or the other.

My experience is entirely the opposite. The longsword is light and balanced enough for one hand, but excelled in two hands. It is made to be moved faster and with greater precision, with less reliance on raw strength.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

My experience is entirely the opposite. The longsword is light and balanced enough for one hand, but excelled in two hands. It is made to be moved faster and with greater precision, with less reliance on raw strength.

Was there a difference in the manufacturing quality of the two swords?

My experience with katana and rapier told me that while a katana generally requires more strength, a badly balanced rapier is a nightmare to (be)hold.

 

[Fenris-77]

My experience is entirely the opposite. The longsword is light and balanced enough for one hand, but excelled in two hands. It is made to be moved faster and with greater precision, with less reliance on raw strength.

Than a Rapier? That really does seem counter intuitive to me. How big is the longsword you're talking about?

 

[Fenris-77]

Was there a difference in the manufacturing quality of the two swords?

My experience with katana and rapier told me that while a katana generally requires more strength, a badly balanced rapier is a nightmare to (be)hold.

I'm talking about HEMA quality practice weapons. Generally pretty well balanced. I've only use a Rapier a couple of times though. I can't see it taking more strength though, there's way less range of motion and it's lighter. Maybe DBW's longsword is smaller than the ones I've actually swung.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Was there a difference in the manufacturing quality of the two swords?

My experience with katana and rapier told me that while a katana generally requires more strength, a badly balanced rapier is a nightmare to (be)hold.

Ice used both high and low quality examples of both.

Than a Rapier? That really does seem counter intuitive to me. How big is the longsword you're talking about?

About to my armpit, at the top end. Usually a bit shorter. We aren’t talking claymores, here. We are discussing swords that weigh within 2lbs of eachother, and are of similar length.

I'm talking about HEMA quality practice weapons. Generally pretty well balanced. I've only use a Rapier a couple of times though. I can't see it taking more strength though, there's way less range of motion and it's lighter. Maybe DBW's longsword is smaller than the ones I've actually swung.

generally, I don’t swing the longsword that much. Controlled cuts and thrusts, controlling the opponents blade, etc, but swinging is more for melees where you are beating someone to exhaustion than for a duel.
As for the sword, anywhere from 2 1/2 to 4 lbs. anything heavier is technically a longsword but for clarity I’d have called a twohander or something.

The rapier, I tend more toward Spanish style, with ideal angles, and a full length rapier not the later small swords, so quite a bit more arm and core strength required to move the thing quickly with one hand, compared to the two-handed vulgar angles I’ve used with a longsword.

 

[Minigiant]

You would probably have to introduce a weapons system that has more mechanical features in order to do this just so you can give them to weapons that you want to differentiate. In the current system, "Longsword" covers any cutting, sword-like weapon that can be used in either one or two hands. There is no property in the current system that could be used to differentiate a katana or macuahuitl from that category.

There are enough dice combinations and properties to include a few more swords.You can even add special for a selection few. There is no need to go full 4E or PF2 with a dozen properties unless that is your desire. The goal isn't to replicate every weapon. It's only to make a heroic fantasy representation than full accuracy.

A katana at my table is a 1d8 slashing versatile (2d4)
A macuahuitl is 1d8 bludgeoning versatile (1d10) special
a jian is 1d8 slashing finesse
a mambale is 1d8 slashing thrown (10/30)
etc etc

 

[doctorbadwolf]

There are enough dice combinations and properties to include a few more swords.You can even add special for a selection few. There is no need to go full 4E or PF2 with a dozen properties unless that is your desire. The goal isn't to replicate every weapon. It's only to make a heroic fantasy representation than full accuracy.

A katana at my table is a 1d8 slashing versatile (2d4)
A macuahuitl is 1d8 bludgeoning versatile (1d10) special
a jian is 1d8 slashing finesse
a mambale is 1d8 slashing thrown (10/30)
etc etc

I’d happily add High Crit and Brutal to a few weapons, though, just because we find them fun properties.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Before we get too far into this, do we want to turn it into a new thread? I wasn't going to respond specifically to this to avoid derailing.
(Of course, now it has turned into an actual discussion, its probably OK.)

My experience is entirely the opposite. The longsword is light and balanced enough for one hand, but excelled in two hands. It is made to be moved faster and with greater precision, with less reliance on raw strength.

Than a Rapier? That really does seem counter intuitive to me. How big is the longsword you're talking about?

Bear in mind that when people think if a D&D Rapier, they often think of a smallsword or similarly small and light-bladed weapon.
A rapier was often as long as the (2-handed) historical longsword, and close to it in weight. The weight distribution is a little different, but the fact that it was wielded in one hand means it actually requires a stronger person to use it effectively.

The longsword's two-handed grip means that it is easier to use for a weaker person. However being more athletic still makes you better at using it, and being more athletic never stops you being able to better wield it. Speed and control of the blade is imparted by force exerted on the grip by the hands. Exert twice as much force, and the blade changes direction or cuts twice as fast, giving your opponent only half the time to respond. - And that is before you start considering feints, beats and pushes where your weapon is directly acting against your opponent's - as are common in many longsword techniques.

What we're running into here is D&D's rather artificial split of DEX and STR. Most combat techniques are very much a combination of the two, and not strictly one or the other.

Combining offensive actions (striking, rapid maneuver of the weapon etc) to fall under Strength, and defensive actions (reflexes for parrying, balance to maneuver your body without being wrong-footed etc.) to fall under Dexterity as D&D does, is probably the best compromise.
Combining the two stats in assorted proportions as defensive modifiers or bonuses to attack with different weapons might be more realistic, but probably more complex than D&D's very simple combat system is build for.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

There are enough dice combinations and properties to include a few more swords.You can even add special for a selection few. There is no need to go full 4E or PF2 with a dozen properties unless that is your desire. The goal isn't to replicate every weapon. It's only to make a heroic fantasy representation than full accuracy.

A katana at my table is a 1d8 slashing versatile (2d4)
A macuahuitl is 1d8 bludgeoning versatile (1d10) special
a jian is 1d8 slashing finesse
a mambale is 1d8 slashing thrown (10/30)
etc etc

Do you think changing 2-handed damage for katana from d10 to 2d4 changing things much in theme or mechanically?

Your macahuitl deals bludgeoning damage? What is the special?

I'd have given the jian rapier or longsword stats but allow piercing or slashing damage. (As I do with longswords and a lot of other weapons.)