D&D 5E Experiences with a PC garrote weapon?

[Charlaquin]

Thanks for sharing your approach. That's a completely different way of handling it than I would ever have come up with! How has this played at your table?

I haven’t used it at the table yet, but that’s the first thing I would try if I had a player who wanted to use a garrote.

If I'm understanding your approach right, it sounds like...

• In your game, a garrote is an item anyone can use when initiating a grapple.
• There are no special conditions (e.g. target unaware or incapacitated, attacker having advantage) that must be in place in order to use the garrote. You're attempting a grapple? You can use a garrote!
• When you succeed on a grapple (while holding a garrote), the target is unable to speak (including being unable to cast Verbal spells – which is almost all spells), and is forced to hold its breath (a matter of minutes).
• However, if you manage to surprise a creature, and successfully grapple it using a garrote, then it is caught without the chance to gasp for air and it begins suffocating (matter of rounds).
• Maintaining the garrote uses the standard grapple rules (which dramatically favor PCs).

Is that what you were describing?

Yep, that’s how I would approach it. Of course, if it proved to cause any problems I’d refine it further, but it looks good for a first pass to me.

 

[Guest 6801328]

My first attempt...although this is kind of complicated.

• Can only be used against a creature that is surprised, incapacitated, or one that has no visible enemies with 5'. (So you can't use it against somebody in active melee, but you could against somebody attacking from range, if you are hidden from it.)
• Requires an attack roll. If successful, Grapple begins. Requires concentration to maintain.
• If successful, target cannot speak.
• On target's turn, target can:
  • Try to break Grapple via normal Grapple rules, but with Disadvantage
  • Attack garroter, also with Disadvantage.
• Each turn, target must also make Con save vs. 8 + attacker's PB + attacker's Str mod.* On a failure, can no longer breathe. Then normal asphyxiation rules kick in.

Then of course this is begging for a Garotter feat, which gives you:

• You have advantage on concentration saving throws and Grapple checks made to maintain a garrote.
• Your victims have disadvantage on saving throws made to avoid asphyxiation.

*Yes, I realize this means it works not terribly well for rogues. Perhaps it could be Str or Dex, but....I dunno, I kind of like it as Str.

 

[Charlaquin]

[*]Can only be used against a creature that is surprised, incapacitated, or one that has no visible enemies with 5'. (So you can't use it against somebody in active melee, but you could against somebody attacking from range, if you are hidden from it.)

I like this restriction a lot. I’d consider adding this to my take if it turned out to be too effective as an anti-caster tactic.

 

[Quickleaf]

Thanks a lot to everyone who has commented. Very useful to see different approaches to designing this. After several failed attempts, I finally hacked together a version of a garrote that I think is balanced or at least moving towards balance...

Garrote 5 gp, 1 lb.; 1d6 bludgeoning damage; Finesse, Two-handed, Special

Restrictions: A garrote can only be used on a creature your size or smaller against which you have advantage on the attack roll. You can only make one attack with a garrote on your turn.
Effect: On a hit, the target is grappled. Until this grapple ends, the target is forced to hold its breath and it cannot make sounds louder than a whisper. The escape DC is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your STR/DEX modifier, whichever you used for the attack.
Maintain: In order to maintain the grapple with the garrote, you must use two hands and you must use your action to keep the target grappled. Each time you use your action in this way, the target takes 1d6 + your STR/DEX modifier damage, whichever you used for the attack. If you use your action to do anything besides maintain the grapple, or if you are unable to take an action, then the target is no longer grappled.
Surprise: However, if the target is surprised, the garrote has far greater efficacy. On a hit against a surprised target, not only is the target grappled, but it cannot breathe (i.e. it starts suffocating) and it cannot speak. Maintaining these additional effects requires you to sustain concentration (like spellcasting); if your concentration is broken, the grappled target is no longer suffocating and can speak in a whisper. Otherwise, it is resolved exactly as above.

Here's my reasoning:

• It's "your size or smaller" and not "Medium or smaller" because you might be a gnome/halfling or you might get enlarged!
• You cannot use garrote to make an opportunity attack, because it must be used on your turn.
• You cannot use Extra Attack or Action Surge to make 2+ garrote attacks, nor can you dual wield garrote and shortsword (since it's two-handed). If you miss, then the opponent realizes what you're up to and that limited window to garrote is gone for the moment. If you hit, well, you can't really make any more attacks cause your hands are tied up choking that hobgoblin out.
• The hit triggers the automatic grapple. Hitting with a garrote, only to deal damage but not initiate a grapple is... that's just jarring narratively, it wouldn't make sense.
• The baseline effect gives the target minutes of air and still allows it to cast spells, use command words, and such. • The escape DC is not linked to skills, thus mitigating any abuse – typically PCs will get much higher skills than monsters ever will.
• The maintained automatic damage dealt by the garrote is not an attack. The idea being that a rogue could use Sneak Attack on the initial attack, but not for anything while the target is holding their breath (or suffocating). This is because if I/we end up sticking with that Taking Damage While Holding Breath house rule (or some version of it), Sneak Attack auto-damage every round could wipe out pretty much any creature's held breath.
• The surprise effect has 2 parts. First, the suffocation is brought in because, well, typically if you have a surprise round then that enemy is going to go down hard or be fighting on the defensive, and combat is going to be fairly short. Like 1-3 rounds, which is probably how many rounds before the target suffocates into unconsciousness.
• The second part of surprise is silence. This is basically similar to a single target version of the 2nd level silence spell – hence the use of the concentration mechanic!

 

[Fenris-77]

That looks pretty good. The proof is always in the pudding though, so le us know how it works at the table.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm attempting to design a garrote weapon that a PC could use – by player request. And I was wondering if any of the ENWorld brain trust had experience adapting garrotes to 5e? How did it go? What worked and what didn't work?

Just use the ettercap rule as is for the weapon.

Normal suffocation rules: minutes, not rounds.

If my players insisted on using rounds, I can guarantee that they will all die in the first encounter when my monsters use the same tactics against them.

 

[Fenris-77]

That seems strong. Unconsciousness could easily be the goal, not death. Also, a time line in minutes presents a lot of issues on different fronts. It doesnt really reflect a useful representation of the thing at hand, and it synergize badly with combat round length. Both those issues were addressed upstream. Being strangled in a general sense isnt really the same as being professionally strangled with an appropriate tool. Or at least that was the goal presented in the OP.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Thanks a lot to everyone who has commented. Very useful to see different approaches to designing this. After several failed attempts, I finally hacked together a version of a garrote that I think is balanced or at least moving towards balance...

Garrote 5 gp, 1 lb.; 1d6 bludgeoning damage; Finesse, Two-handed, Special

Restrictions: A garrote can only be used on a creature your size or smaller against which you have advantage on the attack roll. You can only make one attack with a garrote on your turn.
Effect: On a hit, the target is grappled. Until this grapple ends, the target is forced to hold its breath and it cannot make sounds louder than a whisper. The escape DC is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your STR/DEX modifier, whichever you used for the attack.
Maintain: In order to maintain the grapple with the garrote, you must use two hands and you must use your action to keep the target grappled. Each time you use your action in this way, the target takes 1d6 + your STR/DEX modifier damage, whichever you used for the attack. If you use your action to do anything besides maintain the grapple, or if you are unable to take an action, then the target is no longer grappled.
Surprise: However, if the target is surprised, the garrote has far greater efficacy. On a hit against a surprised target, not only is the target grappled, but it cannot breathe (i.e. it starts suffocating) and it cannot speak. Maintaining these additional effects requires you to sustain concentration (like spellcasting); if your concentration is broken, the grappled target is no longer suffocating and can speak in a whisper. Otherwise, it is resolved exactly as above.

Here's my reasoning:

• It's "your size or smaller" and not "Medium or smaller" because you might be a gnome/halfling or you might get enlarged!
• You cannot use garrote to make an opportunity attack, because it must be used on your turn.
• You cannot use Extra Attack or Action Surge to make 2+ garrote attacks, nor can you dual wield garrote and shortsword (since it's two-handed). If you miss, then the opponent realizes what you're up to and that limited window to garrote is gone for the moment. If you hit, well, you can't really make any more attacks cause your hands are tied up choking that hobgoblin out.
• The hit triggers the automatic grapple. Hitting with a garrote, only to deal damage but not initiate a grapple is... that's just jarring narratively, it wouldn't make sense.
• The baseline effect gives the target minutes of air and still allows it to cast spells, use command words, and such. • The escape DC is not linked to skills, thus mitigating any abuse – typically PCs will get much higher skills than monsters ever will.
• The maintained automatic damage dealt by the garrote is not an attack. The idea being that a rogue could use Sneak Attack on the initial attack, but not for anything while the target is holding their breath (or suffocating). This is because if I/we end up sticking with that Taking Damage While Holding Breath house rule (or some version of it), Sneak Attack auto-damage every round could wipe out pretty much any creature's held breath.
• The surprise effect has 2 parts. First, the suffocation is brought in because, well, typically if you have a surprise round then that enemy is going to go down hard or be fighting on the defensive, and combat is going to be fairly short. Like 1-3 rounds, which is probably how many rounds before the target suffocates into unconsciousness.
• The second part of surprise is silence. This is basically similar to a single target version of the 2nd level silence spell – hence the use of the concentration mechanic!

I personally would make these changes:

• Allow it to apply to a creature one size larger than you if you can get access to its neck.
• Remove Finesse and the Dex component of the escape DC. You're exerting pressure and holding in place against someone trying to relieve it.
• Clarify whether the "cannot make sounds louder than a whisper" prevents verbal components. (I'm assuming it does, but it is important enough that I think it needs spelling out.)
• I might allow sneak attack damage: Rogues seem the type that would be very adept at garrotting people. Or maybe just add damage equal to the rogue's number of sneak attack dice to the damage: Garrotting is a very sure way of killing an unarmed person if you're stronger and take them by surprise, but it takes a lot longer than just stabbing them to death.
• I'm not sure of the concentration mechanic. I don't see strangling someone as preventing you from concentrating on a spell in a way that actively fighting them in melee doesn't. You are very vulnerable to getting stabbed up by your victim and their friends, but doing so isn't necessarily going to prevent you from maintaining the strangle unless you choose to drop it to defend yourself.

 

[jgsugden]

So a 1st level rogue gets the jump on an Archmage (MM monster stats) . +5 to hit with advantage vs AC 12. So a 9% chance of a miss. The rogue is likely to before the archmage due to initiative modifier. Archmage is surprised, so it gets no action on the 1 turn it could take an action. At the start of the next round the archmage begins dying.

Is that the desired result?

 

[Fenris-77]

The Archmage could very easily have a magic item that does reasonable melee damage, enough at least to force a tougher concentration save. There are a couple of non-verbal spells that could do the same in a pinch. Even the basic concentration save is 50-50. I'm not unduly worried at the prospect of having to deal with this unlimbered against villains. Really, if garrotes are a thing it would make sense for the DM to adjust right? Not to make them useless, but to make them realistically useful. That same Archmage with Contingency in his 6th level slot isn't getting dummied by a 1st level Rogue.