D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The white wolf of recent years is entirely different people than the white wolf of said history of ethnic stereotypes, after the name and IPs under it changed hands a few times.

Yeah, but they made the same mistakes under several regimes. I feel like the original sins of the first set of creators attracted some tone deaf fans-turned-creators over the years (along with a few genuine bad apples).

 

[Zardnaar]

Apology accepted, see, as a European I got a bit of an outsiders view which sometimes can offer different perspective.
For instance, I believe that the police training and standard procedures are a bit different in Europe than in the U.S.:

E.g. chances a weapon is drawn for a standard traffic control are close to zero. Chances somebody gets shackled if taken to the department for whatever issue are very low. Chances ordinary people (not criminals) will put up any kind of physical struggle with a policeman are very low. Neutralizing anybody, even if it is a dangerous criminal, by deadly force is the very last resort here. It always means a thorough inves

People are alike all over...
View attachment 122958
That film could be made in any impoverished area in the world. And even the posh neighborhooda have their dark underbellies.

I can dig up documentary if you like.

Things like Ravenloft kinda whitewash things.

They were targeted in the holocaust. I didn't know when I was 12 or 13 when we learnt about it why.

I didn't know at that age the Romani originated in India or had skin colour like that. As I said 12 years old reading books on WW2.

Ultimately they ended up in the death camps of Poland.

That slums not to different than areas of the USA. Vicious circle yes?

 

[Var]

>Var said:

Asians have an advantage nowadays as well after the propoganda that we spread about them being "Model Immigrants".

I'm self censoring here but will only add that treating groups as diverse as white or Asian as monolithic instead of as individuals is totally racist.

Thanks for editing my post and replacing it with a racist blanket statement?
Literally.
There isn't a single word or hint of the original spirit left for the post you "quoted".
Would it be quite alright with you not to replace quotes from me with homophobic content?

 

[GreyLord]

In the current climate, not really at all. In fact, Asians have been vilified and abused by others simply because of ignorance and fear, as in the case of coronovirus, or even because of success in other times. This also hasn't been helped by the media. As an Asian, I haven't really been on this receiving end, but I know others have.

I also feel Asians in general don't really make a scene even after having been racially vilified, ancedoctally my Year 7 high school English teacher was actually quite racist, and this continued in some other year levels, but we didn't really want to make a scene because of that and I didn't want to really talk about it.
I feel specially connected to novels, especially fantasy and science fiction novels, and to roleplaying supplements in particular, as I taught myself English through reading them and writing my own.
It's a huge difference now as I have huge friendship groups, am pretty outgoing, and I'm lucky to be with excellent people.

There HUGE amount of racism against Asians currently. One of the largest groups which have had the biggest divide recently among them are the Hmong. They are a group where many of them live in poverty and have a hard time finding their way out of it. They normally do not make a big outcry (and this is something you see with many Asian cultures, though not all of them) but DO band together to try to support each other. This has created the difficulty where one of them who seemed successful is one of the police accused of murder in the George Floyd Case. Some want to stick together as they have done, while others who also experience these same things from the police in the Asian community want to stand with the protestors. It is difficult because the way they've chosen to try to fight the discrimination is to support one another regardless of circumstances, situation, or position. However, at the same time, they experience much the same discrimination as other minorities in the US...except against them, it's even MORE LEGAL to discriminate than any other group.

In fact many of the protections which apply to other minorities do NOT apply to Asians in the US. Instead they get comments tossed on them that they are a model minority or that they are more successful and other things, while ignoring the massive amounts of racism against them. Asians are a LARGE group that incorporate everyone from the Islamic nations in South Western Asia, to the Eastern nations of Japan, Korea, and China.

Indians in the US are perhaps stereotyped even MORE than most other minorities, and South Eastern Asians are some of the more poor among the minorities in the US. They are commonly overlooked for equality and anti-discrimination meaning that where you may do something that is considered discrimination against another minority, it is absolutely and perfectly legal and seen as okay to do it to an Asian in the US.

One recent example of discrimination that was open to see for all was the harassment of the actress who played Rose Tico in the Star Wars series of movies. There was no call for it, but very few actually came in her support. Even the directors and producers of the series, though they inferred to it slightly, focused more on their own preferences rather than the gross harassment that was focused on her.

It is a shame that such discrimination is ignored and many try to hide it and claim it doesn't exist by stating Asians are a model minority. What is that even supposed to mean...that they like to be able to discriminate against them because they get away with it the most?

That said, they are not the ONLY group where discrimination occurs, and this is why there is such a large number of protests. It's not just a thing in the US, but one where BLM is seen as a rally to those who are oppressed in such fashion worldwide today. There are many who are considered Black around the world that are treated even more harshly than Asians in the US, and even in the US legal slavery (those in prisons in the US are considered to be allowed to be in slave conditions and are not exempted like others, at least in some interpretations of legal wranglings) continues where Black Americans are incarcerated in such situations in higher percentages than others.

I'm going to stop here, because I'll get far too political and I've probably already said too much. I want to say I understand your point though, and agree it is a shame that discrimination against Asian's is looked over so much. I think the focus now is upon the unfair treatment of Black lives in the US and the world, and that it is an important thing to analyze and see how we can act upon it better.

However, it probably would also be well to try to end discrimination against all those who are oppressed and thus I can also understand your point of view.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

@Zardnaar

i wasn’t disputing the origins of the clip. I was commenting that you can find similar stories worldwide- marginalized, “dangerous“, vilified communities in which humans still prove themselves to be humans, capable of joy & pride even in their impoverishment.

 

[Sadras]

I would hope they’d remove the inherent magic abilities (the evil eye and the Vistani curses). Of course the fortune telling is key to the plot, but I (who, again, am not Roma, so for whatever my opinion is worth) think that’s manageable. If nothing else, you could at least make her fortune telling incidental to her being Vistani.

Are we equating Vistani to the historical Romani people?
If no, then why are we asking that these abilities be removed?
If yes, then why would be removing something many in the old country believed in?
PLEASE remember we are not equating the Rom people of today with Vistani. These inspirational ideas are drawn from literature and history of old.

The evil eye is something that is very much believed in some parts of Europe, the Mediterranean and the Middle East - even today. And yes, it is not an exclusive belief to the modern Romani people.

 

[Ash Mantle]

There HUGE amount of racism against Asians currently. One of the largest groups which have had the biggest divide recently among them are the Hmong. They are a group where many of them live in poverty and have a hard time finding their way out of it. They normally do not make a big outcry (and this is something you see with many Asian cultures, though not all of them) but DO band together to try to support each other. This has created the difficulty where one of them who seemed successful is one of the police accused of murder in the George Floyd Case. Some want to stick together as they have done, while others who also experience these same things from the police in the Asian community want to stand with the protestors. It is difficult because the way they've chosen to try to fight the discrimination is to support one another regardless of circumstances, situation, or position. However, at the same time, they experience much the same discrimination as other minorities in the US...except against them, it's even MORE LEGAL to discriminate than any other group.

In fact many of the protections which apply to other minorities do NOT apply to Asians in the US. Instead they get comments tossed on them that they are a model minority or that they are more successful and other things, while ignoring the massive amounts of racism against them. Asians are a LARGE group that incorporate everyone from the Islamic nations in South Western Asia, to the Eastern nations of Japan, Korea, and China.

Indians in the US are perhaps stereotyped even MORE than most other minorities, and South Eastern Asians are some of the more poor among the minorities in the US. They are commonly overlooked for equality and anti-discrimination meaning that where you may do something that is considered discrimination against another minority, it is absolutely and perfectly legal and seen as okay to do it to an Asian in the US.

One recent example of discrimination that was open to see for all was the harassment of the actress who played Rose Tico in the Star Wars series of movies. There was no call for it, but very few actually came in her support. Even the directors and producers of the series, though they inferred to it slightly, focused more on their own preferences rather than the gross harassment that was focused on her.

It is a shame that such discrimination is ignored and many try to hide it and claim it doesn't exist by stating Asians are a model minority. What is that even supposed to mean...that they like to be able to discriminate against them because they get away with it the most?

That said, they are not the ONLY group where discrimination occurs, and this is why there is such a large number of protests. It's not just a thing in the US, but one where BLM is seen as a rally to those who are oppressed in such fashion worldwide today. There are many who are considered Black around the world that are treated even more harshly than Asians in the US, and even in the US legal slavery (those in prisons in the US are considered to be allowed to be in slave conditions and are not exempted like others, at least in some interpretations of legal wranglings) continues where Black Americans are incarcerated in such situations in higher percentages than others.

I'm going to stop here, because I'll get far too political and I've probably already said too much. I want to say I understand your point though, and agree it is a shame that discrimination against Asian's is looked over so much. I think the focus now is upon the unfair treatment of Black lives in the US and the world, and that it is an important thing to analyze and see how we can act upon it better.

However, it probably would also be well to try to end discrimination against all those who are oppressed and thus I can also understand your point of view.

Excellent points, and excellent post!
I fear Asians, as well as other minorities, have always experienced racism, it's just that the degrees vary, and whether these groups fit the current definition of a model immigrant. The term can be something that is well intentioned and is meaningful in itself, but is also something of a disparagement unfortunately, especially with how much groups are seen to rock the boat, both in terms of a community and cultural sense and greater societal sense. A lot of these groups simply suffer in silence and simply endure it, so in that sense we also don't often have an idea how widespread it is; as a related but tangential example, the abscence of many Asian actors in feature roles in Hollywood probably attests to that as well.
This is not to say my posts have been to only comment about Asians and their plight, I absolutely and utterly despise racism and discrimination in all its forms, I emphasise with the protests, and the reasons behind them. I feel that societal complacency needs to be something that needs to be hugely worked upon, that societal changes need to be hugely worked upon, and actual progress needs to be made, which we already have some great examples from this thread point. Here's to small steps and giant leaps for humanity!

Our word in Chinese for everyone is 大家, which means Great Family, so when a Chinese says "Hi all, or Hi everyone" we are saying "Hi, Great Family", I think we should all really start acting like a great family

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It's not just that the hobgoblins are sort-of Japanese in appearance, it's that they take all of the negative of samurai and none of the positive. The negative being, a militant warrior culture. But it doesn't include the positives, such as many samurai being learned poets or artists.

That's a reasonable point, and was less-clear initially. I do think the Roman analogy with Hobgoblins works extremely well - you want an real-life "Lawful Evil" society, Ancient Rome, especially as it portrayed itself, i.e. in it's own writings, is a pretty good example.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Looking broadly at the two approaches to D&D, heroic vs dungeon-looting, the former typically provides the righteous justification I mentioned, while the latter doesn't really require any justification. If it has loot, and it's not evidently Good with a capital G, then kill it and take its stuff. Ogre, goblin, medusa, chimera - it's all the same.

I don't think there's the clear separation you describe, and that's at the root of the issue for me. In the "heroic"-type scenarios, what I've often see is that, if the author is going to have you chop your way through humans (and it's always humans, never dwarves, or halflings, or what-have-you - maybe they miiiiiight have an elf with them, but not a whole group of bad elves who aren't Drow), they provide an actual justification beyond the LE on their alignment or whatever, say thing "These are bad men who work for the dark lord", maybe even specifying bad stuff they've done briefly. Even Drow often get this, actually (in part because it can be hard to explain why they're there otherwise, to be fair).

Whereas if they're orcs, or goblins, or others kinds of intelligent humanoid who normally have "evil" on their alignment, there tends to be no explanation. Not even of why they're there. Kobolds since Dragon Mountain, and 2E in general when rogue art-pieces (which accorded more with the ideas and less with the literal description of kobolds) helped transform them from mean little demon-men to mean little dragon-men, then gradually to still-mean-but-so-cute-look-at-em dragonlets UwU have been something of an exception.

 

[Aldarc]

I didn’t realize he was on that team! I’ve been meaning to put together a game. I’ve played but never run it.

Jeremy Crawford also wrote the forward for the Blue Rose book that was revised and updated for the AGE system.