D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Oofta]

No need to get rid of them. I don’t think anyone is saying get rid of them. Just nuance them. Having a few thousand good, neutral Or technically advanced orcs doesn’t invalidate the evil ones, it’s makes people stop making assumptions though.

But isn't it just as bad to say they tend towards violence? Isn't that the same racist garbage used to describe so-called "super predators"?

If it's just religion (worship of Gruumsh) then doesn't it just shift the association to say that people that worship [insert religious sect] are evil?

My changes would include:

• get rid of the -2 to intelligence if orcs are a playable race in your campaign. No other race (that I know of) has a negative modifier.
• make them green with pig-like faces again. I prefer the 3.x version.
• get rid of the colonialist wording from VGTM.

EDIT: basically make them less human.

If there is no compromise then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Aldarc]

Going back to the OP, I would point out that the game has always been in a state of flux about its lore and a desire to keep the game fresh, relevant, or fashionable. So heritage in itself is not always something worth or needing preservation. It’s sometimes just a hand-me-down relic. Sometimes it represents something that we have not yet had a proper conversation about whether we want to preserve it as is, change it, or remove it. Sometimes when more people move into or are born into the house, you have to get rid of things you may like to make room for them. You may be asked to give up your “man cave” for the baby to have a room of their own. You may look at the things you loved as a child, that you were determined to keep no matter what, and decide that while you enjoyed those things then, there is not really a need to keep them now. And sometimes you will throw out an ugly wagon wheel table that you kinda like because your fiancé that you love hates it [movie reference].

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I refuse to take the bait. My viewing something as inoffensive Doesn’t mean you can’t simultaneously view it as offensive. Symbols aren’t objective.

It's not about differing opinion as to whether we each find it offensive or not though - it's about responding to people's legitimate reasons to be offended with dismissive attitude, and suggestion (implied or otherwise) that instead of fixing the source of the offense things stay as-is because of the presumption that offended people will, if they put in the effort, get un-offended over time.

And isn't this whole "I refuse to take the bait" thing accusations of misconduct? (Especially when that's the entirety of a post.) Am I misremember the rules of this forum, because I swear that wasn't allowed the last time I checked.

 

[Xenonnonex]

But isn't it just as bad to say they tend towards violence? Isn't that the same racist garbage used to describe so-called "super predators"?

If it's just religion (worship of Gruumsh) then doesn't it just shift the association to say that people that worship [insert religious sect] are evil?

My changes would include:

• get rid of the -2 to intelligence if orcs are a playable race in your campaign. No other race (that I know of) has a negative modifier.
• make them green with pig-like faces again. I prefer the 3.x version.
• get rid of the colonialist wording from VGTM.

EDIT: basically make them less human.

If there is no compromise then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

He is literally asking for nuance. Why is there the inherent assumption of tendency towards violence. Why is that racist garbage.
Balanced are Eberron orcs. Could be good examples.

 

[Oofta]

He is literally asking for nuance. Why is there the inherent assumption of tendency towards violence. Why is that racist garbage.
Balanced are Eberron orcs. Could be good examples.

I don't have the Eberron book. My impression was that certain orcs are not evil because they come from a different region and follow a different religion.

 

[TheSword]

So...
I'm quoting myself:

Agree/Disagree?

It’s not for me to make your points for you but in no post have I seen people suggest that orcs cannot be evil or only odd orcs or evil.

You can have your adventure set in the County of Blomkvin where the Bloodaxe orcs are famed for ruthlessness and savagery in battle. It’s your campaign you can do what you like.

However WOC can also publish in their xxxx guide to the xxxxx that there is a tribe of orcs called the Iron Crown clan that have mastered advanced metallurgy as a result of an order or orcish metal smith mages. The Iron Hammer dwarves tried to steal these secrets and pass them off as their own, but the Orcs work far surpasses that of the dwarves and goes back further with several ancient orcish artifacts.

Orcs from this tribe frequently follow the path of the metal mage (orcish archetype) or use the metal shaping feat (feat that alters fire damage based spells). Their technical superiority means that they are less likely to be attacked and are less prone to infighting and therefore far less warlike than their nearby kin. If a dwarf hears of the Iron a Crown clan they are likely to become close mouthed and defensive. for the attempted theft and deception is the great shame of the Ironhammer clan which all dwarves know one their hearts to be a lie.

Nothing about the Iron Crown Orcs invalidates the Bloodaxe orcs. However by making an orcish culture that doesn’t reinforce racial stereotypes about savagery, being taught civilization by white folks, stupidly and barbarism. You are creating an alternative. To be clear I’m talking about an orcish culture not a single good orc who turned out good because he was raised by elves.

Is there a problem with this in a published campaign? I’m not talking about Eberron. We know that there is already gracefully allowed to be one world where orcs aren’t psychopaths.

 

[Olrox17]

I don't have the Eberron book. My impression was that certain orcs are not evil because they come from a different region and follow a different religion.

Gruumsh is not a thing in Eberron. Big, big difference. No meddling evil god messing with your race every day.

 

[Xenonnonex]

I don't have the Eberron book. My impression was that certain orcs are not evil because they come from a different region and follow a different religion.

Eberron orcs fought against evil. Stood against evil. Eberron orcs do not have the Int penalty. Eberron orcs have the choice of two skills. Eberron orcs are otherwise the same.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's not about differing opinion as to whether we each find it offensive or not though - it's about responding to people's legitimate reasons to be offended with dismissive attitude, and suggestion (implied or otherwise) that instead of fixing the source of the offense things stay as-is because of the presumption that offended people will, if they put in the effort, get un-offended over time.

dang good thing this isn’t happening.

 

[Aldarc]

@Oofta, There are multiple orc religions in Eberron. There is not even a singular culture of non-evil orcs. Some orcs in the Shadow Marches are Druidic and oppose planar invasions. Some in the Demon Wastes oppose demons and have a religion similar to the Silver Flame. Some worship the Sovereign Host. It depends on where you live, your culture, upbringing, or any midlife crisis you may have.