D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[FrogReaver]

Eberron orcs fought against evil. Stood against evil.

wait a minute... you mean to tell me all this is a big to do about something wotc already solved?

 

[Xenonnonex]

wait a minute... you mean to tell me all this is a big to do about something wotc already solved?

I have said many times before. Eberron already has examples. People want to keep arguing is on them.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

As far as inclusiveness and heritage go, have the books always been, traditionally, expensive?

I can only talk about our reality, but probably yes. In fact, they used to be more expensive. As a middle-class teenager living in one of the richest parts of our country, I could only afford the AD&D 2e books as birthday/Christmas gifts from my parents. Growing up, I could skip lunch and save money for pretty much all the stuff I wanted, but D&D books were an exception at the time.

And there's a language barrier as well. Portuguese versions of the books do exist, but they manage to be even more expensive! English classes at a public school in Brazil will not make anyone able to read in English, and private school classes are not much better. You have to go to a language school to learn it, which I believe 90% of our population wouldn't be able to afford even if their lives depended on it (and sometimes they do; knowing English improves your employability a lot around here, with bigger salaries as well).

One of these days I'll write an essay "being a teenage gamer in 90's Brazil: fun as playing Contra on hard mode".

That sounds pretty horrible and I’m sorry that’s your experience. It’s not my place to tell you what about the hobby makes you feel bad or not. Though when you then said you weren’t really bothered by how much the dragon cost, I misunderstood your point.

Don't worry, no offense taken. I think we should all agree that being in someone else's shoes is no easy task. I'm not campaigning for Wizards, Paizo, or any other creator to ignore someone who raises concerns in good-faith either, I just believe that having a concern doesn't make it automatically worth of consideration, because not all concerns can be easily implemented (I think that's the case with what is or not affordable to different gamers, for example) or are equally valid (I, for one, haven't been convinced that playing as a law officer is offensive on an abstract level, without further context).

 

[FrogReaver]

It’s not for me to make your points for you but in no post have I seen people suggest that orcs cannot be evil or only odd orcs or evil.

You can have your adventure set in the County of Blomkvin where the Bloodaxe orcs are famed for ruthlessness and savagery in battle. It’s your campaign you can do what you like.

However WOC can also publish in their xxxx guide to the xxxxx that there is a tribe of orcs called the Iron Crown clan that have mastered advanced metallurgy as a result of an order or orcish metal smith mages. The Iron Hammer dwarves tried to steal these secrets and pass them off as their own, but the Orcs work far surpasses that of the dwarves and goes back further with several ancient orcish artifacts.

Orcs from this tribe frequently follow the path of the metal mage (orcish archetype) or use the metal shaping feat (feat that alters fire damage based spells). Their technical superiority means that they are less likely to be attacked and are less prone to infighting and therefore far less warlike than their nearby kin. If a dwarf hears of the Iron a Crown clan they are likely to become close mouthed and defensive. for the attempted theft and deception is the great shame of the Ironhammer clan which all dwarves know one their hearts to be a lie.

Nothing about the Iron Crown Orcs invalidates the Bloodaxe orcs. However by making an orcish culture that doesn’t reinforce racial stereotypes about savagery, being taught civilization by white folks, stupidly and barbarism. You are creating an alternative. To be clear I’m talking about an orcish culture not a single good orc who turned out good because he was raised by elves.

Is there a problem with this in a published campaign? I’m not talking about Eberron. We know that there is already gracefully allowed to be one world where orcs aren’t psychopaths.

no problem by me. Almost seems like both sides have been arguing against strawmen. Amazing when it comes down to that.

 

[Olrox17]

It’s not for me to make your points for you. In no post have I seen people suggest that orcs cannot be evil or only odd orcs or evil.

What the...how can you say that? I just quoted my own post. Did you read it? I said:
My current position is that I'm totally fine with having new "different" orcs, as long as the "traditional", standard, Gruumsh-loving evil orc is not expunged from the game.

Do you agree or disagree?

You can have your adventure set in the County of Blomkvin where the Bloodaxe orcs are famed for ruthlessness and savagery in battle. It’s your campaign you can do what you like. However WOC can also publish in there xxxx guide to the xxxxx that there is a tribe of orcs called the Iron Crown clan that have mastered advanced metallurgy as a result of an order or orcish metal smith mages. The Iron Hammer dwarves tried to steal these secrets and pass them off as their own, but the Orcs work far surpasses that of the dwarves and goes back further with several ancient orcish artifacts. Orcs from this tribe frequently follow the path of the metal mage (orcish archetype) or use the metal shaping feat (feat that alters fire damage based spells). Their technician superiority means that they are less likely to be attacked and are less prone to infighting and therefore far less warlike than their nearby kin. If a dwarf hears of the Iron a Crown clan they are likely to become close mouthed and defensive. for the attempted theft and deception is the great shame of the Ironhammer clan which all dwarves know one their hearts to be a lie.

Nothing about the Iron Crown Orcs invalidates the Bloodaxe orcs. However by making an orcish culture that doesn’t reinforce racial stereotypes about savagery, being taught civilization by white folks, stupidly and barbarism. You are creating an alternative.

Is there a problem with this in a published campaign?

No! There isn't! That's not too diffrent than what I suggested a couple hundred posts ago. Listen to what I'm saying, not to what you think I'm saying.

 

[TheSword]

no problem by me. Almost seems like both sides have been arguing against strawmen. Amazing when it comes down to that.

There seems to be this idea that these ideas need to be confined to Eberron because they’re not right for the core game. As if all the people who are bothered about these things need to play in Eberron because that’s for them and core d&d carries on as before.

 

[Oofta]

Regarding Eberron orcs - does anything make them stand out from other races other than general appearance? Do, I don't know, ogres get the same treatment? What about fiends?

Because that goes back to heritage. If there can't be monsters in any campaign then I think the game loses something.

 

[Xenonnonex]

There seems to be this idea that these ideas need to be confined to Eberron because they’re not right for the core game. As if all the people who are bothered about these things need to play in Eberron because that’s for them and core d&d carries on as before.

Yep. Why I said could be good examples. So. Means people should at least know about them. Before making assertions. And doubling down.

 

[FrogReaver]

There seems to be this idea that these ideas need to be confined to Eberron because they’re not right for the core game. As if all the people who are bothered about these things need to play in Eberron because that’s for them and core d&d carries on as before.

... no one is or has suggested that either.

However, in a setting where orcs are already established as evil by nature let’s leave them to be evil by nature. Or maybe end up addInt some lore where they were magically freed from that evil nature? Lots of potential ideas there.

do you think a single setting with orcs that are absolutely evil is okay?

 

[Xenonnonex]

Regarding Eberron orcs - does anything make them stand out from other races other than general appearance? Do, I don't know, ogres get the same treatment? What about fiends

Their culture. Their history. What they stand for. Very interesting.
Gnolls get the same complex treatment. Hobgoblins get the same complex treatment. Not as simple as other settings.

Because that goes back to heritage. If there can't be monsters in any campaign then I think the game loses something.

Lots of monsters. Complexity of Eberron means humans can be monsters. I suggest reading it.
The head of a good church is evil. The evil general king wants to end war.