D&D 5E Should D&D 5e have Epic Levels?

[Mercurius]

The big problem with that is having enough foes to fight and adventures to undertake. Lvl 20 PCs can already take on CR 30 monsters, so it takes some work to challenge them.

That's why we need cosmic dragons and primordial titans!

 

[Minigiant]

Didn't 4e provide an epic destiny for each class or am I misremembering?

Yes and no. Not really. Some required a class. Some required a power source. Some just required you to be level 21. The first PHB only had 4 total for the 8 classes to share.

By the 3rd PHB and all the power books, maybe most class got their own epic destiny. But I don't think all of them did.

 

[auburn2]

Waste of space. I am not going to play to those levels (I don't even play to the current level 20 cap) and I don't think most will.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What does that mean? I mean why not just play to lvl 10 or something if you want to play a normal person. What does level have to do with it? It took my players about 4 years (10 years game time) to get to level 10, so I know you can play a long, thorough, and fulfilling campaign at low to mid levels. If you want to go the demi-god route, look at Theros did it with supernatural gifts or grab them from the DMG and, boom, you have a little demi-god boost at level one and 20 levels to build on that.

However, none of those are epic player options were are talking about in this thread.

Playing only to level 10 isn't fun for me or my group. Full stop. We don't ever take that long to get to 10, unless we don't get to play a campaign often, because not leveling is far from fun to us that we would rather just not play that game, and we enjoy letting out characters "grow up" in the way that can only satisfyingly happen by gain new abilities and competences.

On the other hand, letting "epic" gameplay live in a layer outside level allows both of us to have what we want, by allowing a less steep climb in power by default, with the ability to "go epic" at whatever level makes sense for your group, campaign, story, etc.

Also, you asked people to explain why they don't want epic levels in 5e if their answer is no. I did so.

 

[Tallifer]

I think it was Rolemaster that published a book with level 125 spells. Too bad they were just extremely unimaginative and more powerful versions of lower level spells.

 

[ccs]

As I'm very unlikely to use such an option it makes no difference to me.

 

[Weiley31]

While I wouldn't mind it, I'm not in a need for it. Now what I do think is that there should be Prestige Classes. They would be composed of five levels and would become available to be taken at the 15-20 level range.

 

[FireLance]

I voted yes, but I think the real issue is not adding class levels. The real issue is having adventures that are epic in stakes and in scope, but which are not just another dungeon delve with bigger numbers. The PCs ought to be doing things like ruling nations (maybe even worlds), leading armies, controlling major organizations like factions and churches, but this is so different from the iconic D&D experience that we may need to introduce new rules, the DM may have difficulty adjudicating the outcome of the PCs' actions, and the players themselves may not be interested in taking the game into this new direction.

 

[The Big BZ]

I would settle for proper support for Levels 15 - 20

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

When first reading the DMG, I felt they WOTC had a good idea with progression after level 20. The DMG expects characters at level 20 to start becoming transhuman, with a warlock starting to become a patron to other warlocks, for example. I feel it's the expected range of play to hand out blessings (the low-power boons) as higher powers should take an active interest in the PCs (after all, PCs are supposed to defeat the lieutenants of dark gods themselves at this point, it should at least be noted by the good gods...). Then, progression above 20 should emphasize the transition into something else. I am all for some progression at level 20, but I am not sure "becoming more fightery" or "becoming more wizardy" is the way to go. The characters at level 20 are already embodying the pinnacle of their role. Should one of my game reach the point where I have to worry about PC progression, I would probably tailor it to the individual PCs and offer a specific string of epic boons that would ultimately make them transitionning into otherworldly beings. As a system, I feel that epic boons should be developped to correct the imbalance between boons (or maybe sort them into chains?) and to offer more variety. The DMG uses the example of a warlock becoming a patron and a wizard attaining lichdom: those are characters goals that could be implemented through appropriate boon chains. Like a prestige class implemented through epic boons. A level 20 PC group can already overcome any reasonable threat to their realm ; I feel the progression should be more flavorful than powerful.

The problem with epic spellcasting could be solved by implementing the Incantions rules in 5e, with high level heroes becoming able to enable those very difficult rituals of power (and not complicating too much the life of the DM as would introducing level 10, 11, 12... spells). If it takes a quest to gather what is needed for the epic Incantation to be cast, it's more interesting and a boosted meteor shower. BTW, is there an implementation of incantations for 5e? (it shouldn't be diffcult to homebrew, though, just adjusting DCs).