D&D 5E Should D&D 5e have Epic Levels?

[jayoungr]

I think my group would use it if it existed. That said, I don't think it's something that needs to happen. We can manage without it or come up with our own solutions.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My PCs still gain new abilities/rewards outside of leveling, but it seems my group's playstyle is much different than yours, and that is OK. I honestly think we could play a D&D campaign for years and never get past level 5. Leveling just isn't a big deal to us.

Sure, I don't have an issue with that - I just wouldn't call it epic in my eyes or how the OP described it. Also, as I mentioned, we already have a system like that available for 5e from WotC. It just takes the usual 5e approach to fringe 5e playstyles and gives us the bare bones for use to play with.

Also, I personally don't want that style of epic or what I call mythic (since PF started it) game play. That is decidedly not what I want. I think it is fine way to play, it is just not for me.

Cool, but I didn't ask. This is not my thread. FYI, I voted no too!

Ah my bad, I got my posters mixed up.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Have you tried 5e without ASIs, just feats? Not sure what you meant by: " I don't even want levels 15-20 to be as epic as they are. " But I find removing ability score increases makes the PCs feel more mundane, but they still get cool new toys (feats) to use. If you want more options you can use the UA skill and weapon feats too. We thought about using the variant features UA, but I am expecting that to make it into an official document soon, so we are holding off.

With no ASI, you get the thrill of level advancement without some of power bloat associate with ASIs.

We actually do play with only feats, but the class features and spells of high level are pretty unavoidably epic, IMO. Levels 17-20 are epic levels!

 

[auburn2]

I voted yes, but I think the real issue is not adding class levels. The real issue is having adventures that are epic in stakes and in scope, but which are not just another dungeon delve with bigger numbers. The PCs ought to be doing things like ruling nations (maybe even worlds), leading armies, controlling major organizations like factions and churches, but this is so different from the iconic D&D experience that we may need to introduce new rules, the DM may have difficulty adjudicating the outcome of the PCs' actions, and the players themselves may not be interested in taking the game into this new direction.

I think this is a really good point. Back in AD&D I had one player who wanted to do this and we did it twice, once in a forgotten realms campaign I had on the moonsea. He started running this estate on the side 1-on-1 in addition to rare epic dungeon crawls with the party. Even used some hooks to get into those dungeon crawls. This was probably my most successful endeavor but eventually in ended in a TPK while trying to assasinate the leader of Zhentil Keep, inside Zhentil Keep. I think other than the one player, most in the campaign were relieved to have it end. The same player and I also did an epic spinoff after we finished dragonlance. Finally the same player wanted to do it at level 12 in 5e after we tired of the group campaign we were playing. We haven't really went anywhere with that though.

I ran into two problems with this, and maybe it is specific to me and my players. First only one guy wanted to do this, meaning we break up the campaign and continue one-on-one (or try to recruit someone).

Second is I was not good at it as DM, I had trouble creating the epic story and challenging the player. Sure I could have a dragon attack his keep and slaughter his citizens (and I did), but that only works once and really can't be the focus of such a campaign. You need political intrigue, enemy armies, taxes etc and when I put that together it all felt rather thin to me. We did it a little bit and I had fun, and he probably liked it more than "standard" D&D even as bad as I was at it, but I ran out of ideas pretty quickly.

 

[dave2008]

As long as it shows up on a book exclusive for that sort of content, I don't care.

If it shows up on books competing for precious space with other (in my opinion) more useful content, then no.

There is already stuff for epic play in the DMG

 

[dave2008]

We actually do play with only feats, but the class features and spells of high level are pretty unavoidably epic, IMO. Levels 17-20 are epic levels!

I agree actually. What I look for past lvl 20 is immortal games. However, I guess I am a bit confused. Let me see if I understand:

• You want a lvl 1-20 game that doesn't give the characters fantastic (or epic) abilities.
• You want an option to give any lvl 1-20 character fantastic (or epic) abilities.
• So you are looking for small increases in power and/or usefulness spread over 20 levels? So by level 20 you are only at the equivalent power of a level 10 player or something, but you have add 20 levels of slight improvement?
• Would cap spells at lvl 5 or something? Just give magic users access to more spells or something to compensate?

 

[Maxperson]

That's why we need cosmic dragons and primordial titans!

And a Cosmic Cube. Gotta have Cosmic Cubes.

 

[Mistwell]

I think there is some demand for epic levels. But I think it should be put out in combination with a deities, demigods and epic heroes book.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I agree actually. What I look for past lvl 20 is immortal games. However, I guess I am a bit confused. Let me see if I understand:

• You want a lvl 1-20 game that doesn't give the characters fantastic (or epic) abilities.
• You want an option to give any lvl 1-20 character fantastic (or epic) abilities.
• So you are looking for small increases in power and/or usefulness spread over 20 levels? So by level 20 you are only at the equivalent power of a level 10 player or something, but you have add 20 levels of slight improvement?
• Would cap spells at lvl 5 or something? Just give magic users access to more spells or something to compensate?

Stuff like Wish would only be available to a PC who has an Epic Destiny, while the level 9 spells that are just damage are available to any level 17+ full caster of the right class.

Fantastic is good, epic shouldn’t be unavoidable. Stuff like the longevity capstone abilities are the sort of things that belong in epic destinies, IMO.

I’d also add ten more levels where you get 2 more ASI’s, but no increases to proficiency bonus. I’d still want figures like Tiamat to be a hard fight, at any level.

 

[Zsig]

There is already stuff for epic play in the DMG

The thread's title says "Should D&D 5e have Epic Levels?"

There is no such a thing in the game currently.