WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Xenonnonex]

Bolded word included by myself.


But like another poster wrote some time ago about this very same issue:

If inspiration cannot be treated with respect. Then more work needs to be done with it.

 

[Sadras]

If inspiration cannot be treated with respect. Then more work needs to be done with it.

Sure. But you'd need to provide it.
Their biggest complaints are comeliness, honour and the like.

 

[Oldtimer]

Times change. The world changes. Things change for the better. Things change because we know better. Do not persuade me otherwise.

All small and very vocal (and sometimes violent) group is calling for change. And claiming the change is for the better. It is not.

 

[Xenonnonex]

I watched the first episode a while ago because someone said the series was a good explanation of why OA 1e is problematic. I did not find it so.

The two hours are on the beginning of the book, the intro, the ability scores, and the races. It has been a while so these are my memories of it. The two guys started with 3e and did not play 1e. They go on and on for almost half the time talking about Comeliness. They mistakenly say that 1e Comeliness as a stat is introduced here (it was introduced in Unearthed Arcana) and how this was motivated by asian stereotypes of ugly asian men and dragon ladies, how asian sexuality is portrayed as overwhelming everything else and determining how your character acts and this is Gygax targeting asians as the people without agency driven by sexual attractiveness in a way that does not apply to non-Asians. Comeliness is a terrible, generally misogynistic agency removing mechanic, but it was not targeted or inspired by Asia, it was just a terrible non-ethnic beauty mechanic.

There is also some criticism of wisdom being described as enlightened and samurai requiring a minimum score. Also about racial maximum and minimums and how it is based on rolls and restricts character concepts.

They talk about races focusing mostly on the barbaric low charsima dwarven Korobokuru are Mongolians and play into drunken stereotypes and how they are restricted to being ugly barbarians who people by the rules hate because of their low comeliness. I am not familiar with stereotypes of Mongolians or the mythological basis of Korobokuru, in the 80s I saw them as barbaric dwarves as presented in OA.

The majority of the specific criticisms seem based on mistaken understandings and general 1e AD&D non-asian specific mechanics, the bits on Korobokuru as Mongolians seemed the most relevant to a criticism of a stereotype possibly targeted at an Asian ethnic group.

It is mostly a preaching to the choir sort of vibe, assuming that just showing things you will be offended without a lot of explaining why things would be offensive.

I had gone in thinking it would explain why people would be offended by OA and it was not really that. I was not inspired to spend any more time on the rest of the series.

Ethnically are you Asian?
Cultural lived in experiences may be different.

 

[Dire Bare]

All small and very vocal (and sometimes violent) group is calling for change. And claiming the change is for the better. It is not.

Your evidence that the number of folks bothered by "Oriental Adventures" is small?

And violent? What? What are you smoking my dude?

 

[Xenonnonex]

All small and very vocal (and sometimes violent) group is calling for change. And claiming the change is for the better. It is not.

Complacency is not what is needed. Especially if there are issues to be addressed.
Even Lovecraft changed his racist attitudes.
Saying they are sometimes violent is not productive. Or factual.
If you do not like the change then do not play with it.
How can you know the change is not for the better. Where is that conclusion from

 

[Oldtimer]

Your evidence that the number of folks bothered by "Oriental Adventures" is small?

And violent? What? What are you smoking my dude?

I wasn't talking about this group in particular, but responding to the sweeping remarks that things are changing for the better.
Sorry if I was unclear on that.

 

[Imaculata]

I think a fair comparison here, are the works of H. P. Lovecraft. His works contain more than just a little bit of racism... but does this mean his work is of no value?

Chaosium has done a pretty good job in this regard, by putting an explanation at the beginning of several books (and videogames) denouncing the racist origins of the work and explaining the context.

In my home town is a beautiful iconic square with a statue of a controversial figure from Dutch history: a butcher of the east India trading company. In light of protests, a plaque was added to the statue, informing people of his crimes. I felt this was a decent solution... but now in 2020 people want that statue torn down yet again. And I feel that is a shame, because that statue is right in front of an iconic museum, where people can learn all about that time period. I fear however that many of the people who want that statue torn down aren't interested in learning much of anything. They want to destroy a symbol, just because it's there.

I fear the same for some of these books, and I think we should all take a deep breath and also recognize their value.

 

[dave2008]

It bothers me that the term Oriental is being seen as a slur, because in origin it isn't. ... It shouldn't be a slur, and it disgusts me if ignorant fools have made it such.

It is not a racial slur. It can be tied to racial offensive language (but so can Asian), but the word itself is not a slur. Primarily it has fallen out of favor as way to describe people. It is still used to describe objects (like rugs). So because its usage has changed, it can seem racial motivated to use it in a certain context.

 

[Danzauker]

Bolded word included by myself.


But like another poster wrote some time ago about this very same issue:

@Skepticultist said:
]If you're just find with plundering Irish, Scandinavian, Greek, and other European cultures history and myth for fodder for your role-playing games, then why should Asian cultures and history be treated any differently? This right here is why this entire line of argument just pisses me right off. It's handwringing nonsense motivated by white guilt.

I'm not Scandinavian, therefore I should not use Vikings in my game, right? No? Well, then, why is orientalism an issue, but scandinavianism isn't an issue? It's dumb.

This.

Exactly.

There's so much mish-mash in D&D, there's always been, that I really find the point of complaining an imprecise use or inspiration from a real life culture in the game (if it's not blatantly offensive, of course) bordering the absurd.

What I also find a little upsetting is reading many reactions to the criticism to the current trend (not only in the RPG world, just look at the recent news about dubbing and Captain America: Civil War) is branding everyone disagreeing with it as insensitive, "frail white" if not outright racist or fascist.

Maybe it's just that who's criticizing these outrages find them the wrong way to address a problem. Maybe these people, and i put myself among them, find this a stupid and wrong way to NOT addess it.

I personally think racism is one of the world's oldest and worse problem, and I'm sure that many other critics thik the same. I also think that many of the people vocally proposing to remove games and rename movies are just influencers, show-offs and plain frauds that are just wanting to ride the outrage wave just to get like and visibility. It's all a diversion, and people are taking it.

It's quite easy to protest to remove Gone with the Wind from a streaming service. The service will gladly comply. they only have to put a 5 minute explanation at the beginning, and presto, we're done. What problem have we solved now? How farther are we now in the road to equality? Answer. A big fat nothing.

Outcry on social media is easy and free. Fighting the problem where it really is, it's much harder and costs time and effort.