D&D 5E How should be the future Oriental Adventures.

[humble minion]

man I feel like some people are deliberately ignoring the original issue of WotC profiting off OA after saying they're gonna be more sensitive in the future. I can't say "my restaurant is now vegetarian!" and still serve bacon just because a few customers want it.

you can give away a product without "promoting" it, and bringing it up this way would be seen as a PR move to address this issue. yes, people are gonna start downloading it, I even might myself. but as you said virtually no one is running Kara-Tur these days, and it would remain largely a curiosity and historical piece, and again WotC wouldn't make any money off this.

I get what you're saying, but it's a difficult call on WotCs part with no real good option. To mutilate your metaphor somewhat, the options you're presenting are "my restaurant is vegetarian (but we'll still sell you bacon if you really want it)" or "my restaurant is vegetarian (but we'll give the bacon away for free if you really want it)".

Maybe (from a PR point of view) they could just donate the proceeds from OA sales to some anti-racism charity and call it a day. I can't imagine they're making more than small change from these anyway. But the proof of the pudding will be (as you correctly point out) in the quality of any future Asian-themed books they put out, and the treatment of any non-Anglo authors that write such things.

 

[J-H]

Here's a summary of how this is.
"We, who do not work for you, and who are probably not buying your products:
1) Demand that you stop making money by selling one of our products because we find it to be Diverse in the Wrong Way.
2) We, who demand this of you, will not provide funding or replacements to recoup your lost income.
3) Further, if you attempt to replace this product, we will inevitably find new offenses to decry in your replacement, and shall sic the Twitter mob on you in additional ways, potentially including attempting to destroy your (individual) ability to provide for your family's needs by destroying your job.
4) If you do not comply, you will be judged unWoke and guilty of BadThought."

In this climate, it'd be ridiculous for a company to greenlight $250k or $500k on a new and improved OA, or a new book set in an expy of, say, Mughal India (3-4 religions, 40+ petty kingdoms, a recent partial conquest, multiple linguistic and ethnic groups, lots of lore, architecture, and art, and very much not "European pastiche). Who's going to spend the money when the Cancel Mob finds something to object to in the new materials (and they always will)?

The ultimate result will be as America's top satire site has prophesied.

You can already see this by the deletion of the Native American in all forms from popular culture, up to and including Land O Lakes recently removing the Indian but keeping the land.

There is no assumption of good faith on the part of the other side by the cancelers. They don't want to build anything on their own. Giving in is just paying the Danegeld.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Here's a summary of how this is.
"We, who do not work for you, and who are probably not buying your products:
1) Demand that you stop making money by selling one of our products because we find it to be Diverse in the Wrong Way.
2) We, who demand this of you, will not provide funding or replacements to recoup your lost income.
3) Further, if you attempt to replace this product, we will inevitably find new offenses to decry in your replacement, and shall sic the Twitter mob on you in additional ways, potentially including attempting to destroy your (individual) ability to provide for your family's needs by destroying your job.
4) If you do not comply, you will be judged unWoke and guilty of BadThought."

(edit)

Who's going to spend the money when the Cancel Mob finds something to object to in the new materials (and they always will)?

(edit)

There is no assumption of good faith on the part of the other side by the cancelers. They don't want to build anything on their own. Giving in is just paying the Danegeld.

Edits mine.

You might want to check out Matthew 7:1-5

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Remember when The Dixie Chicks got “cancelled” by the conservatives? Record burnings? Boycotting venues that played “rock & roll”?

Ever hear of the practice of”shunning”?

This “cancel culture” as people are calling it now is just a tool, and everyone uses it. Assuming things about the character of the people using boycotts, etc. isn’t going to win you any converts. They’ll just make assumptions about YOU.

Instead of complaining about the methods some are using to air and publicize their grievances, why not assess the grievances on their merits? Maybe they have a point? Maybe something can be done? Maybe you’ll be the one with a solution.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I want to mention a future Chinese-Spanish coproduction for an animated movie "Dragonkeeper" based in the novels by the Australian writter Carole Wilkison (I doubt her to have got near Asian ancestors).

China Film Group, Dragoia Media, Movistar Plus, Atresmedia Cine Team on ‘Dragonkeeper’ (EXCLUSIVE)

China Film Group, Dragoia Media, Movistar Plus, Atresmedia Cine Team on animated feature ‘Dragonkeeper,’ adapting Carole Wilkinson’s novel

variety.com

Also I want to mention Exalted by White Wolf, or Mortal Kombat, because they are Western games in the covers, but with many elements from wuxia in the core.

Far East - TV Tropes

A sort of odd mishmash of Japan and China (with occasional bits of Korea, Mongolia and Southeast Asia), mixing various stereotypes about "the Orient" in general. Expect to see kung-fu or other martial arts, pandas, chopsticks, lots of bowing, …

tvtropes.org

Culture Chop Suey - TV Tropes

Culture Chop Suey is a Fantasy Counterpart Culture cobbled together from two or more real world cultures. As with an Anachronism Stew, the reasons for this can vary from case to case. It can stem from the writer's ignorance on the subject: they …

tvtropes.org

---

The videogame Enslave: Odissey to the West by the British studio "Ninja Theory" is a loose adaptation of "Journey to the West". Is anybody complaining about cultural apropiation?

We agree about for a better coexistence we have to do our best to show respect for the other communities. It's totally right to ask advice people from the different countries, but I don't agree about the idea of a taboo for western companies to make speculative fiction inspired in wuxia or anime genres. In my opinion it is not about to close those doors but how to find the right key. Wuxia by western authors shouldn't be banned. If the work is right, a wuxia D&D would be very good for the own Asian community, to help fight against sinophobia and all that. How many people started to learn Japanese because they liked manga-anime?.

I support the idea of "chop-suey" cultures in the speculative fiction, mixing things from different civilitations. At least because it allows more ambiguity if you want to do a subtle criticism against some people in the real life.

We shouldn't talk about a new Kara-Tur but how to give the right toolbox for the Asian fandom to create their own fantasy worlds based/inspired in their culture.

* Hasbro is the owner of Enternaiment One. This means if it wants it could buy Asian studios to produce its own anime, (and later some titles adapted into videogames or D&D).

* I wonder about WotC to publish a rehush of D&D only for Chinese market, without corporeal undeads as skeletons and zombies and things like this, or maybe something more "atheist", sci-fi.

Zhao Gao points to a deer and calls it a horse - China History

Zhao Gao (died 207 BC), allegedly a eunuch, served as a close aide to all three emperors of the Qin dynasty – Qin Shi Huang, Qin Er Shi and Ziying – and was regarded as having played an instrumental role in the downfall of the dynasty.

history.followcn.com

 

[J-H]

Edits mine.

You might want to check out Matthew 7:1-5

I'm quite familiar with judging and being judged by the same standard. I'm fine with that. I haven't tried to get anyone fired from their job, tried to burn any books, called for the destruction of historical artifacts, or otherwise acted in an uncivilized and nihilistic manner.

This “cancel culture” as people are calling it now is just a tool, and everyone uses it.

Based on what I've observed, there's a preponderance of power, such that about 95% of the damage is coming from one side. Either way, it's a pretty bad tool when it involves destroying peoples lives over mere words.

It's pretty hard to stuff the genie back in the bottle, especially when "Debate on the merits" is likely to get you banned (Twitter), blocked (Facebook), or injured (face to face, numerous examples).

The only way to make it go away is to call it what it is, and decline to participate/obey/submit.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That genie left the bottle thousands of years ago, I’m afraid.

 

[J-H]

Nah, it's a lot worse and more common now than it's been in centuries. Everyone's a lot more exposed, there's a lot more hypersensitivity about everything, and you can't just "move 100 miles away" to get a fresh start. No mistakes are allowed, no grace is given, and any apologies or concessions are merely evidence proving guilt and malfeasance.

Do you have an alternative way forward that WOTC can follow to withdraw the old OA without then opening themselves up to manipulation and abuse by the outrage mob whenever they try to roll out a setting based on a non-European Earthly culture?
People have tried having 'diversity readers' and 'authors of color' (because we've moved from "no racism" to "you can only write about people of the same skin color") and books still get cancelled.

I would really hate to be in the publishing business and dealing with this sort of thing right now. It's a minefield no matter which way you go, and what I suggest is still not a "good" solution, merely a "least worst."

In some ways, the winning move is (like that '80s movie says) "not to play." Just write the rules, rehash an existing and generally-approved-of setting, and let the 3rd parties take all the heat for writing settings that deal with non-European cultures, slavery, oppression, etc....... which may, possibly, actually be what WOTC is doing. That would explain why we aren't getting any new settings except the podcast one and stuff from MTG that is, I assume, fairly safe and boring.

 

[BigZebra]

If Asians are saying oriental is a word they dislike. Because of racist connotations. Because of outdated concepts. Listen. And do not use it.
Do not simply decide this should be kept because of nostalgia. Do not simply decide this is okay because of perceived and biased opinions.
The world has progressed. Involve cultural consultants.

But not all asians are saying that. Some even the opposite!

Also you just tell people what to do. Not very constructive.

 

[Umbran]

There is no assumption of good faith on the part of the other side by the cancelers. They don't want to build anything on their own. Giving in is just paying the Danegeld.

Mod Note:

That's more than enough broad brush dismissal and insulting of others. If you want to talk about particular points of reason for positions with respect to gaming, then do that. Group dismissal of concerns is not constructive.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Based on what I've observed, there's a preponderance of power, such that about 95% of the damage is coming from one side. Either way, it's a pretty bad tool when it involves destroying peoples lives over mere words.

Maybe in 2020 that is a fair viewpoint, but when I think of activists trying to tell me what I am allowed to consume I'm thinking of the Janet Jackson/Superbowl incident, boycotting TV shows with LGBT issues, and even the BADD satanic panic cancel culture of the 80s.

It's a tactic any side can employ, it's just currently one favored by progressive activists in the social media arena.