D&D 5E How should be the future Oriental Adventures.

[Panda-s1]

Sadly, someone did make that claim. I don't know why they thought it was so, but the two things were so entertwined for them that that was the case. Can't remember who it was though

good for... them, we just had a discussion of how applying an honor system to any Asian setting is an example of Orientalism. if you were trying to emulate a specific culture that had a system like that, then okay, but not every Asian culture has this.

 

[GreenTengu]

yeah, no, imposing rigid social hierarchies on your setting "because Asia" would be an example of Orientalism. to be fair the shogunate did make a whole to-do about social classes in an effort to legitimize their rule, but you're right in calling out how imposing this on all Asian settings is weird.


yeah I'm also constantly disappointed in official samurai options. personally I think we should have two different samurai sub-classes, one for the Sengoku era armor clad samurai who mostly fought on horses (also not exactly exclusive to Japan, so labeling it as "samurai" is weird), and another for the Edo period samurai who wanders and uses his sword to help useless villagers. yeah that last one is tropey and not realistic, but it is fun and worth exploring imo.

also while we're on tropes: ninja. I brought this up in a different thread, but I'm disappointed how they're almost entirely based on the Western interpretation of ninja that was created like 30-40 years ago and hasn't aged at all. I'd totally play a character who's sneaky and uses cool magical abilities to fight enemies. it's not like the west is ignorant of these ninja tropes either, they make their way here via Japanese pop culture, but we don't even use the tropes made up by the country where ninja come from lmao.

I feel like that has already been done with the standard Fighter class.
If you go with a Strength-based Fighter, then you are going to want heavy armor and a polearm/heavy weapon.
If you go with a Dexterity-based Fighter then you are going to want minimal armor and use only a rapier or a rapier and short sword. Just retheme the rapier into a katana.

You can make both Tadakatsu Honda and Miyamoto Musashi using the Fighter class without having to have a separate "samurai" class.

good for... them, we just had a discussion of how applying an honor system to any Asian setting is an example of Orientalism. if you were trying to emulate a specific culture that had a system like that, then okay, but not every Asian culture has this.

Samurai having an "honor system" at all is very much an invention of Meiji Era Japan when it was psyching soldiers up for World War II. In truth, they were far quicker to switch sides in a war-- either during or immediately after the battle-- than happened with anyone but mercenaries in Europe. There was so much "I defeated you in battle, now you work for me" that it may as well have been considered the norm. And some of the biggest names lost battle after battle before finally getting cornered and either dying or becoming a retainer of their enemy-- meaning that running away when the battle turned against them was very much in their character.

Sure, there are instances in those who stood against impossible odds bravely to protect their master or who committed suicide after carrying out an order they disagreed with or when their side lost-- but those more famous for doing so were mostly not even technically samurai. And the last one was mostly done because they were so afraid of what would happen to them if they were caught.

And then one could get into the instances where samurai killed the children of their former enemies lest they grow up into enemies that slaughter their entire families (because the whole "samurai" thing started with a pair of brothers who did exactly that-- got spared/adopted by their father's enemy then, once adults, used their position to slaughter their father's enemies whole family and took over the country) or when they forced their own relatives to commit suicide in order to avoid a potential dispute over succession.

In fact, the main guy who started the samurai tradition, Minamoto Yoshitsune, won a ton of his battles through entirely dishonorable tactics. For example-- in a battle on boats, instead of fighting the enemy soldiers, he had his men shoot the peasants who were rowing the boats.

So it makes absolutely no sense to impose an honor system on them any more so than it does for knights-- because they were no different.

The whole idea of a "bushido code" was made up by Miyamoto Musashi-- a guy, by the way, who was in a couple key battles, isn't recorded as having done anything of note in them, and was on the losing side yet survived-- meaning he ran his ass away every time he was in a real fight. He also claims to have won countless duels-- but any recordings of him doing so always involve him using the dirtiest, most underhanded, most dishonorable tricks possible. And this is the guy who people are going to pick up the idea that samurai are honorable from?

It was adopted in Meiji era Japan in order to serve as propaganda for the war effort-- it is how they got pilots to be kamikaze pilots-- but, by now? Pretty much everyone in Japan is so over believing any of that. The truth is pretty well recorded and depicted in countless games that depict that era. (It is one of the most popular subjects to make games out of.)

Granted-- one is making a fantastical version-- but its not like Europe "Knights" in D&D are expected to strictly adhere to the Code of Chivalry lest one be struck with mechanical penalties. The precise Code of Chivalry isn't even spelled out explicitly anywhere in the books.

So it would be fine if "bushido" were part of the setting as some sort of ideal that no one really reaches and most of the successful people don't even aspire to-- but once in a while you might get a young, green fighter who has "drunk the kool-aid" and totally buys into it. And that can be a fun particular character concept.

But striking characters mechanically for not adhering to a dumb code that even the guy who wrote it never actually emulated? That's just hamstringing players for no reason.

 

[Aldarc]

I'm not sure what you are referring to with the word this.

I was asking whether Eberron - which I was told picked up on post-WWII Cold War themes - considers the profound impact of the Cold War outside of Europe. I think that is taught and written about, but I'm not sure if Eberron touches on it.

The idea that history is written from perspectives is also something that is taught, and written about. Uphtread I mentioned Hobson's The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation That's a book that writes about perspectives in history. And it's a book that gets taught (eg I teach it).

Eberron is less post-WW2 and more post-WW1. Arguably post-Franco-Prussian War. There is a certain Cold War aspect to it though no one knows how Cyre was “nuked” or what/who caused it.

 

[pemerton]

Eberron is less post-WW2 and more post-WW1. Arguably post-Franco-Prussian War. There is a certain Cold War aspect to it though no one knows how Cyre was “nuked” or what/who caused it.

WW1 also had profound effects outside Europe - eg the transformation of Turkey, the creation of the modern political structures of the "Middle East", changes to colonial structures in East and South-West Africa and in the western Pacific.

Not to mention implications for non-European coponents of European empires.

I'm not sure if Eberron deals with these things.

 

[Aldarc]

WW1 also had profound effects outside Europe - eg the transformation of Turkey, the creation of the modern political structures of the "Middle East", changes to colonial structures in East and South-West Africa and in the western Pacific.

Not to mention implications for non-European coponents of European empires.

I'm not sure if Eberron deals with these things.

The Kingdom of Galifar was also referred to as the Five Nations, but about 12 plus nation-states emerged after the war in Korvaire because of colonial fragmentation and a push for autonomy by components of the respective nations. Also, unlike Europe, neither Galifar nor the Five Nations really have any colonial holdings outside of Khorvaire, with Stormreach possibly being the lone exception.

 

[Count_Zero]

Samurai having an "honor system" at all is very much an invention of Meiji Era Japan when it was psyching soldiers up for World War II.

Minor correction - World War II was the Showa period (1926-1989).

 

[GreenTengu]

Minor correction - World War II was the Showa period (1926-1989).

Right, the change in era happens when the emperor changes. Although Japan between the period when the American ships forced open the ports to the end of World War II is better treated as a distinctly different period of time than Japan after World War II. There wasn't much about Japanese culture that connects 1926 to 1989 very well. I just don't have any better term for "End of Edo period and reconstruction of the government to introduction of post-WWII constitution and reconstruction of the government." Maybe there is one and I just can't remember it.

 

[Count_Zero]

I just don't have any better term for "End of Edo period and reconstruction of the government to introduction of post-WWII constitution and reconstruction of the government." Maybe there is one and I just can't remember it.

We're drifting off-topic but you're covering a period with three emperors - Meiji (1868-1912), Taisho (1912-1926), and Showa. There are some significant shifts between periods (like Taisho being more progressive and reformist with some fascist rumblings in the background, before taking a hard turn into Fascist with the start of the Showa period.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

Musashi didn't start the bushido code. His book is a pretty good manual for how to sword fight (I used it for that) and the whole book is "win however you can and if you cannot, live to fight another day when you can win". If there is anything else in his story it is keep learning and practicing and don't be so narrow.

I would note that Sword World, the leading Japanese TTRPG does not have Japanese-themed classes. I don't see Samurai and Ninjas called out. When I was working in Japan, the guys at the local game store told me they just play fighters who are either just Japanese fighters or they play a European themed fighter because it is a fantasy roleplaying game, so why not?

 

[Chaosmancer]

WW1 also had profound effects outside Europe - eg the transformation of Turkey, the creation of the modern political structures of the "Middle East", changes to colonial structures in East and South-West Africa and in the western Pacific.

Not to mention implications for non-European coponents of European empires.

I'm not sure if Eberron deals with these things.

I'm not sure if Eberron needs to deal with these things to be honest.

Yes, the World Wars affected the world. But Eberron isn't being unfair to anyone by narrowing it's scope to only explore how they affected this group of nations.

I mean, I wouldn't consider it unfair to Spain to not mention them much while running a game set in Steampunk London. Now, if I want to do Steampunk Europe, and I ignore Spain and Portugal, that is something else, but just narrowing your scope to be manageable isn't a big deal to me.