D&D 5E How do you handle someone who is not surprised but is unaware of any threats?

[clearstream]

Alert only trumps surprise while your conscious.

Agreed.

 

[Maxperson]

To which, the Alert feat creates an exception. Ordinarily, you have to be aware of a threat to avoid being surprised by it. Alert trumps that.

This is what the feat says.

Always on the lookout for danger, you gain the
following benefits:
• You gain a +5 bonus to initiative.
• You can’t be surprised while you are conscious.
• Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls
against you as a result o f being hidden from you.

You gain the benefit from becoming aware of the dangers you are on the lookout for.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I think reasonable cases can (and have) been made for the rules supporting either:

-Alert makes it so you are always aware of your foes
-Alert allows you to avoid the drawbacks of the surprised state despite not being aware of your foes

So what I’ve been asking myself is which interpretation creates a set of consequences to the game that I like better?

In asking yourself that question you have to make a few decisions that have been mostly glossed over or only brought up in passing. The first one is whether you are going to run initiative, surprise, and the round sequence according to RAW and RAI or not.

The way it officially works is that no combat actions (Attack, Ready, etc) take place before initiative is rolled. As soon as a player declares a combat action (or the DM decides a monster is going to start one), initiative is rolled by all. That means that its very likely that the person who ”initiated” initiative might lose the initiative and not be the first person to act at all. Yes, this isn’t an ideal system, but that’s what we’ve got, and should be kept in mind when discussing rules that rely on it.

So, all that established, what consequences go with the different interpretations of how Alert interacts with Surprised?

The potential consequences that I find the most undesirable include:
-Alert bypassing any and all methods of being able to attack without being noticed
-Alert characters who win initiative having no idea combat has started

The first consequence arises from the first interpretation of Alert, while the second arises from only one manner of handling the second interpretation of Alert. So for me, the way to avoid the most undesireable consequences is to take the second interpretation and avoid handling it in such a way as to reach that consequence.

The easiest way for me to do that is to say Alert gives you that spidey-sense, so that even if you don’t know what foes are out there, you know there is impending danger. I’d prefer to make it a little less precognitive seeming than that, but the feat descriptions aren’t helping. There is another feat (Observant) that makes it less likely for you to be surprised (among other benefits) by raising your Passive Perception and making you more observant of your surroundings. Alert doesn‘t. It seems to be focused more on reaction speed than awareness of environmental details. Unfortunately, that does make it difficult to determine how exactly it works when you need some indication of how it should trigger. Hence, the spidey-sense, with its precognitive overtones.

I think the best way to handle it at any table is going to depend on which set of potentially undesireable results you can live with.

 

[Maxperson]

The potential consequences that I find the most undesirable include:
-Alert bypassing any and all methods of being able to attack without being noticed
-Alert characters who win initiative having no idea combat has started

The first consequence arises from the first interpretation of Alert, while the second arises from only one manner of handling the second interpretation of Alert. So for me, the way to avoid the most undesireable consequences is to take the second interpretation and avoid handling it in such a way as to reach that consequence.

The easiest way for me to do that is to say Alert gives you that spidey-sense, so that even if you don’t know what foes are out there, you know there is impending danger. I’d prefer to make it a little less precognitive seeming than that, but the feat descriptions aren’t helping. There is another feat (Observant) that makes it less likely for you to be surprised (among other benefits) by raising your Passive Perception and making you more observant of your surroundings. Alert doesn‘t. It seems to be focused more on reaction speed than awareness of environmental details. Unfortunately, that does make it difficult to determine how exactly it works when you need some indication of how it should trigger. Hence, the spidey-sense, with its precognitive overtones.

I think the best way to handle it at any table is going to depend on which set of potentially undesireable results you can live with.

That's why I sometimes allow it to work like an unspecified readied action. The attackers get to do what they're going to do, but the alert PC gets to interrupt them(assuming he wins initiative) and take an action before they do. If he loses initiative, it doesn't really matter as everyone else is surprised and he basically just gets to use a reaction if circumstances allow it.

 

[clearstream]

This is what the feat says.

Always on the lookout for danger, you gain the
following benefits:
• You gain a +5 bonus to initiative.
• You can’t be surprised while you are conscious.
• Other creatures don’t gain advantage on attack rolls
against you as a result o f being hidden from you.

You gain the benefit from becoming aware of the dangers you are on the lookout for.

I understand why you find that interpretation appealing. Yet one can be on the lookout for danger, without automatically noticing that danger ... or doing so in any precise way. Like @Sword of Spirit I have in mind Observant too, and the likely coincidence of an ambusher having succesfully hidden from the characters.

Say that some rogues ambush the party. They achieve surprise through their stealth checks beating party passive perception. Being hidden they have advantage and will do sneak attack damage. Alert does not prevent that.

[EDIT: This might represent a meeting place between our views. As you might have seen above, I frequently describe and endorse the DM giving the player some notice that combat has started. A rustle of leaves, a vapour in the air, a presence... even spidey-sense is some degree of noticing. I just say that strictly speaking such noticing can't pinpoint foes or trump their concealing abilities. That's needed to smooth over occasional awkwardness around 5e handling of initiative. It's not needed when the Alert character wouldn't go first anyway!]

 

[clearstream]

I think reasonable cases can (and have) been made for the rules supporting either:

-Alert makes it so you are always aware of your foes
-Alert allows you to avoid the drawbacks of the surprised state despite not being aware of your foes

So what I’ve been asking myself is which interpretation creates a set of consequences to the game that I like better?

In asking yourself that question you have to make a few decisions that have been mostly glossed over or only brought up in passing. The first one is whether you are going to run initiative, surprise, and the round sequence according to RAW and RAI or not.

The way it officially works is that no combat actions (Attack, Ready, etc) take place before initiative is rolled. As soon as a player declares a combat action (or the DM decides a monster is going to start one), initiative is rolled by all. That means that its very likely that the person who ”initiated” initiative might lose the initiative and not be the first person to act at all. Yes, this isn’t an ideal system, but that’s what we’ve got, and should be kept in mind when discussing rules that rely on it.

So, all that established, what consequences go with the different interpretations of how Alert interacts with Surprised?

The potential consequences that I find the most undesirable include:
-Alert bypassing any and all methods of being able to attack without being noticed
-Alert characters who win initiative having no idea combat has started

The first consequence arises from the first interpretation of Alert, while the second arises from only one manner of handling the second interpretation of Alert. So for me, the way to avoid the most undesireable consequences is to take the second interpretation and avoid handling it in such a way as to reach that consequence.

The easiest way for me to do that is to say Alert gives you that spidey-sense, so that even if you don’t know what foes are out there, you know there is impending danger. I’d prefer to make it a little less precognitive seeming than that, but the feat descriptions aren’t helping. There is another feat (Observant) that makes it less likely for you to be surprised (among other benefits) by raising your Passive Perception and making you more observant of your surroundings. Alert doesn‘t. It seems to be focused more on reaction speed than awareness of environmental details. Unfortunately, that does make it difficult to determine how exactly it works when you need some indication of how it should trigger. Hence, the spidey-sense, with its precognitive overtones.

I think the best way to handle it at any table is going to depend on which set of potentially undesireable results you can live with.

I liked your discussion above, and having slept on it, I think we can go one better

Consider "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter" and the Alert colour text "Always on the lookout for danger..." As some posters argued, we can stipulate that Alert causes a character to preternaturally notice danger... while still ruling that this level of awareness falls short of pinpointing a foe's location or breaking its concealment abilities. A DM might like to give hints in the environment - a rustle, a vapour - or they might like their players to choose character-specific narration - the cold touch of your patron's hand runs a shiver down your back.

Mechanically, we can hold in mind that we can treat surprise like a condition, and Alert prevents that condition while you are conscious. Even if you are deafened and blinded, if you have Alert and are conscious the surprise condition can't apply to you. (Which argues more in favour of per-character cues, than in-the-environment cues, for my money.)

The common case of surprise is that foes are hidden - making stealth rolls that beat party passive perception. The case is common, because if foes aren't hidden they're less likely to qualify for surprise! For assassins and rogues, becing concealed could trigger additional effects. If Alert made characters aware of foes in the mechanically stronger sense (of revealing them), then it would negate their stealth rolls and prevent such effects. That doesn't seem right (and is covered by other feats, like Observant). Instead, we can rule that Alert makes characters aware of foes in a mechanically weaker sense, letting them know combat has started.

@doctorbadwolf @auburn2 @Maxperson I wonder if the above covers your concerns?

 

[Maxperson]

I understand why you find that interpretation appealing. Yet one can be on the lookout for danger, without automatically noticing that danger ... or doing so in any precise way. Like @Sword of Spirit I have in mind Observant too, and the likely coincidence of an ambusher having succesfully hidden from the characters.

Say that some rogues ambush the party. They achieve surprise through their stealth checks beating party passive perception. Being hidden they have advantage and will do sneak attack damage. Alert does not prevent that.

[EDIT: This might represent a meeting place between our views. As you might have seen above, I frequently describe and endorse the DM giving the player some notice that combat has started. A rustle of leaves, a vapour in the air, a presence... even spidey-sense is some degree of noticing. I just say that strictly speaking such noticing can't pinpoint foes or trump their concealing abilities. That's needed to smooth over occasional awkwardness around 5e handling of initiative. It's not needed when the Alert character wouldn't go first anyway!]

Yeah, so my interpretation allows the same rogues to get the same attack with advantage and sneak attack. Being AWARE of the danger does not mean that the alert PC can SEE the danger.

Edit: LOL I see you came to the same conclusion.

I would use the stronger type of awareness in situations where there wasn't some other rule in effect like hiding or etherealness which requires the weaker type of awareness.

 

[clearstream]

Yeah, so my interpretation allows the same rogues to get the same attack with advantage and sneak attack. Being AWARE of the danger does not mean that the alert PC can SEE the danger.

Edit: LOL I see you came to the same conclusion.

It might have been that you were reading my comments to mean that I was ruling out any level of noticing (for me, spidey-sense is noticing, on some level) while I was reading your comments to imply the stronger level of noticing (pinpointing location, breaking concealment). I was endorsing comments that laid out ways for DMs to implement weak-noticing... but in my own comments was giving an overly-purist mechanical explanation.

I would use the stronger type of awareness in situations where there wasn't some other rule in effect like hiding or etherealness which requires the weaker type of awareness.

I'd make it consistent for two reasons. First, I think it is easier for players to rely on their expectations if a DM applies mechanics consistently. Second - on a purist note - I think game mechanics should apply their effects consistently and simply. For Alert to operate as you describe, it would need to have something about it that detected not only danger, but kinds of concealment. Which doesn't make it wrong to DM it that way: it just seems too baroque for me. Unnecessary.

I guess my approach to mechanics is Taoist - let them do what is necessary that they do, and no more

 

[77IM]

FWIW, when someone initiates combat by taking a hostile action, I will give them advantage on initiative if they commit to taking that action on their first turn. In this case, when there's no combat, and it starts with "the ettercaps attack," the ettercaps would get advantage on initiative, but on their turn they must attack. I mostly use this on players when they attempt to circumvent the initiative system by declaring actions before combat has started.

 

[Flamestrike]

mostly use this on players when they attempt to circumvent the initiative system by declaring actions before combat has started.

When they declare combat actions, combat starts.

If they tell you they walk around with Ready actions hit them on the head with the PHB and get back to DMing.