D&D 5E How do you handle someone who is not surprised but is unaware of any threats?

[Maxperson]

I see. That doesn't work for me as an interpretation because it implies that Alert can do something beyond the words in the feat. That it will automatically make its possessor aware of creatures - even those with abilities that should prevent that character being aware of them, such as etherealness. Well, no kittens will die if we each go with our preferences


That's an understandable reading, but not really a logical claim: it ignores the logical system that the rules are laid out with. A general rule for surprise is the first line you quote. Feats create exceptions to general rules. The Alert feat creates the exception summarised in the second line you quoted. Ergo with the feat, you can't be surprised - regardless of what you notice - while you are conscious. Otherwise, logically, if you somehow didn't notice something - while conscious - it must surprise you. But the feat says that can't happen!

The version of Alert that I think would meet your purpose would read something like "While you are conscious, you always notice threats at the start of an encounter".

They don't have to be aware of something on another plane before initiative is rolled. You can say something like the following.

DM: As you walk through the brush you see a fresh bone half hidden by the grass. The hair on the back of your neck begins to rise. Suddenly, 3 creatures fade into view around you and your companions. Roll initiative.

You've alerted the PC to the danger just prior to the ceeaturea fading in. Those without the feat are surprised. The one with it isn't.

 

[Fenris-77]

Exactly. If it had been meant to only mean that the character can't suffer the effects of surprised, it would have been worded differently.

It pretty clearly is the intention of Alert.

I don't actually agree. The ambusher fires an arrow out of hiding and hits the assassin. Enter combat mode, so roll initiative and determine surprise. The Assassin rolls (probably high) and doesn't lose his first round action. Alert has happened. The rest of the party loses its first round action due to surprise, because they don't have alert.

The more general reading of 'never be surprised' doesn't pass the laugh test for me. Me: Hey, I got you a present! Alert: I don't need to open it, it's a pony. Surprised is a mechanic and a general adjective, which do you think the rules are most likely indexing here? The adjective answer struggles to make even basic sense nor does it suggest any kind of practical way to implement it at the table. IDK, YMMV I guess.

 

[clearstream]

I think one plays better but of course if you dislike how it plays then do whatever.

For sure!

Sounds like a very logical reading. We know surprise only occurs when you don't notice any threat. Since alert feat makes you incapable of being surprised it would be logical to view the feat as allowing you to notice a threat.

I think it would be reasonable, but not logical. The problem created is this. Say that there is a threat that is currently ethereal. The rules say "Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you and can't interact with you, unless a Special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so." That then admits of two options. 1) I can say that Alert also provides perception into the ethereal plane, which feels like a stretch! 2) If it does not, then if Alert only works because it makes me notice threats, then I must be going to be surprised even though I am conscious.

Therefore, we're forced to choose option 1), but say that further the creature successfully Hides (which it can, as you can't see it) by beating your Perception. We are now forced to overrule its Hide (because again, we were forced to choose 1).

The logical reading is this: if you have Alert, while you are conscious, you cannot be surprised (technical meaning, i.e. the mechanical keyword). No further elaboration necessary.

The alternative is to say that it changes the surprise rules such that the chraracter with the feat doesn't need to notice a threat. Both are logical readings. IMO one plays significantly better though.

The alternative is exactly what should be expected under exception trumps general rules constructions. It also plays significantly better! And I say that, having run into precisely this conundrum and playtested both approaches at the table.

 

[clearstream]

They don't have to be aware of something on another plane before initiative is rolled. You can say something like the following.

DM: As you walk through the brush you see a fresh bone half hidden by the grass. The hair on the back of your neck begins to rise. Suddenly, 3 creatures fade into view around you and your companions. Roll initiative.

You've alerted the PC to the danger just prior to the ceeaturea fading in. Those without the feat are surprised. The one with it isn't.

Until their turn, if those creatures are ethereal, they remain ethereal.

 

[FrogReaver]

For sure!


I think it would be reasonable, but not logical. The problem created is this. Say that there is a threat that is currently ethereal. The rules say "Creatures that aren't on the Ethereal Plane can't perceive you and can't interact with you, unless a Special ability or magic has given them the ability to do so." That then admits of two options. 1) I can say that Alert also provides perception into the ethereal plane, which feels like a stretch! 2) If it does not, then if Alert only works because it makes me notice threats, then I must be going to be surprised even though I am conscious.

Therefore, we're forced to choose option 1), but say that further the creature successfully Hides (which it can, as you can't see it) by beating your Perception. We are now forced to overrule its Hide (because again, we were forced to choose 1).

The logical reading is this: if you have Alert, while you are conscious, you cannot be surprised. No further elaboration necessary.

One observation. You can determine when to call for initiative. Just don't call for it while there's no creatures on the material plane.

The alternative is exactly what should be expected under exception trumps general rules constructions. It also plays significantly better! And I say that, having run into precisely this conundrum and playtested both approaches at the table.

I disagree on all counts there.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Technically, it can only mean that the character can't suffer the effects of surprised.

Well, no. That isn't true. Even if it were true, it would only be true to overthinking and nitpicking the wording of the feat, which is not how 5e rules are meant to be read.

I don't actually agree. The ambusher fires an arrow out of hiding and hits the assassin. Enter combat mode, so roll initiative and determine surprise. The Assassin rolls (probably high) and doesn't lose his first round action. Alert has happened. The rest of the party loses its first round action due to surprise, because they don't have alert.

The more general reading of 'never be surprised' doesn't pass the laugh test for me.

That's because you're taking it outside of it's obvious dnd context in order to make a rhetorical point.

5e isn't written for nitpicking rules lawyering. Surprise in the sense of being alert obviously applies to combat, being ambushed, etc. Therefor, that is what the feat refers to.

If you are ambushed, you are not surprised. That means that you are not taken off guard, you are not caught unawares, etc. You are always ready to be ambushed.

Now, by the rules, that first attack doesn't go off until initiative has been rolled and the attacker's turn comes up, but I and many other DMs rule that an ambush attack can go off before init is rolled if the target is surprised.
If the ambush archer targets someone with Alert, they're out of luck. The alert character hears the creak of the bow being drawn, and if they roll better initiative, they get to act before the archer shoots.

But regardless, under no usage of the term is the Alert character surprised by the attack. They're ready for it, and they are aware of an immediate threat when it occurs.

 

[Flamestrike]

My point being that (just by the name of the feat- Alert) the implication is that the character does get some information just before the round begins.

I agree. I go further to state all players should be given an indication (via narration) of why the DM is asking them to make a Dexterity ability check; what is it they are reacting to?

At which point we should note that the arrow gives an indication of direction - everyone else may be sussing out that point, but the Alert character gets that instantly, and probably should be told where, along its line of flight, the enemy might be hiding.

If the Alert character (or anyone else for that matter) wants to make that determination (using the arrow to calculate where the enemy is) he can take the Search action. That's expressly what the Search action is for.

If a player told me he was going to use the arrow to assist in determining the enemies position, I'd give him advantage to the Perception check the Search action enables.

Or, alternatively - there's noting that the arrow implies an attack has already been made.

Metagaming is wrong. If players make that assumption, they're doing it wrong. The arrow is narrative fluff used by the DM to signal to the players that combat is beginning, up the tension, and set the scene for combat sequencing to follow.

If the players want to make metagame deductions based on that narrative fluff, they deserve everything that they get.

 

[Maxperson]

Until their turn, if those creatures are ethereal, they remain ethereal.

One way or another the PC is aware of all threats before initiative is rolled. That's what the feat does. It's up to the DM who has the greater knowledge of the encounter to figure out how to convey that awareness.

That said, it's RAW that the rules serve the DM, not the other way around. It's within your power to make an exception and say that in this circumstance the PC is surprised. Or go the other way and treat it like an undeclared readied action as I described above.

My choice would be to change things to allow the feat to do what it was designed to do.

 

[clearstream]

Well, no. That isn't true. Even if it were true, it would only be true to overthinking and nitpicking the wording of the feat, which is not how 5e rules are meant to be read.

Conversely, I feel like the other approach is overthinking and nitpicking. It's trying to spatchcock together a clear mechanical effect with a general adjective. And nitpicking over that mechanic when it can just plainly function as written.

5e isn't written for nitpicking rules lawyering. Surprise in the sense of being alert obviously applies to combat, being ambushed, etc. Therefor, that is what the feat refers to.

I feel the same way. If you are ambushed, you can't suffer the effects of surprise. That's the only entailment required.

If you are ambushed, you are not surprised. That means that you are not taken off guard, you are not caught unawares, etc. You are always ready to be ambushed.

You are always ready to be ambushed, and you don't gain supernatural modes of perception! You react so quickly that surprise can't effect you.

Now, by the rules, that first attack doesn't go off until initiative has been rolled and the attacker's turn comes up, but I and many other DMs rule that an ambush attack can go off before init is rolled if the target is surprised.
If the ambush archer targets someone with Alert, they're out of luck. The alert character hears the creak of the bow being drawn, and if they roll better initiative, they get to act before the archer shoots.

If you are saying that you prefer to change the initiative rules and having done so, Alert works better read as you interpret it, then fair enough. Without changing the initiative rules, it works better without becoming some kind of super-sensory-perception.

But regardless, under no usage of the term is the Alert character surprised by the attack. They're ready for it, and they are aware of an immediate threat when it occurs.

Notice how you add the word "aware" there. That word does not appear in the Alert text. You're always ready for danger. That's it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Conversely, I feel like the other approach is overthinking and nitpicking. It's trying to spatchcock together a clear mechanical effect with a general adjective. And nitpicking over that mechanic when it can just plainly function as written.


I feel the same way. If you are ambushed, you can't suffer the effects of surprise. That's the only entailment required.


You are always ready to be ambushed, and you don't gain supernatural modes of perception! You react so quickly that surprise can't effect you.


If you are saying that you prefer to change the initiative rules and having done so, Alert works better read as you do, then fair enough. Without changing the initiative rules, it works better without becoming some kind of super-sensory-perception.


Notice how you add the word "aware" there. That word does not appear in the Alert text. You're always ready for danger. That's it.

The simple solution IMO, don't roll initiative until the enemy has appeared and is attacking. While it's not explicitly spelled out, rolling initiative sooner than that has always led to weird issues. If you do that then alert works perfectly well.