D&D 5E How do you handle someone who is not surprised but is unaware of any threats?

[clearstream]

I for one am not really sure the point of alert if combat starts and you have to waste your turn doing next to nothing. Might as well have been surprised in that case.

Some actions that could make sense. 1) Move to an advantageous position. 2) Perhaps try to Hide. 3) Dodge. 4) Cast a buff. 5) Cast an AoE to shape the battlefield. 6) Flee. 7) Ready my crossbow to shoot the first creature I see that attacks myself or a party member. 8) Ready a spell to...

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm trying to think of a scenario where the party can be surprised and the alert character would get to attack on his first turn using the spidey sense interpretation.

 

[clearstream]

Especially when you remember that you san say that generally, without breaking the enemy out of their hiding - "over behind the bushes to the north". They can still get their advantage when they attack from hiding, can't be directly targeted by spells, still have the advantage/disadvantage from hiding, and all that.

The point at hand is that a feat is a pretty significant thing, and having it be, "you get to take an action, but usually it cannot be a meaningful action," is devaluing the feat a great deal.

That overstates the case! Alert is one of the better feats in the game. Usually, combat does not start with either side surprised. When it does, that is usually the PCs surprising NPCs. Occasionally, the opposite happens. Sometimes, the player with Alert also rolls high initiative on turn one of such a turn-about.

So sometimes in uncommon circumstances, Alert is less powerful than it would otherwise be.

 

[clearstream]

I'm trying to think of a scenario where the party can be surprised and the alert character would get to attack on his first turn using the spidey sense interpretation.

Fireball! Or just use the Ready action.

 

[Umbran]

I do not follow your thinking here. Are you saying that a character with Alert can be surprised any time that they are not aware of the source of that (potential) surprise?

No. I am saying that Alert means that at initiative, they are aware.

Where is that written?

I am applying basic logic:

Surprise: "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Alert Feat: "You can’t be surprised while you are conscious. "

Ergo, with the alert feat, you do notice threats at the start of the encounter.

Again, the thing can still be hidden or obscured while you are aware of its existence, in general.

 

[Maxperson]

One of the characters I am DMing for has an insane +11 to initiative and the alert feat which prevents surprise.

So how do you handle it when she does not see and is not aware of any adversaries, is not surprised because of the feat but goes first in a round?

For example at the last gaming session there were some ettercaps and giant spiders that snuck up on the party as they were searching the woods. No one in the party noticed them. In normal circumstances this is easy - everyone is surprised. The problem here is she can't be surprised but the round starts with her (she got a 27 initiative on this particular battle). So I have everyone roll initiative and ask her what she is doing since she goes first.

The way I have been handling it is "you sense something is amiss" with no further details and then let her move take an action, or whatever. Usually she draws a weapon moves to a favorable location and either takes a ready action (I attack the first enemy I see) or she takes a dodge action.

When I was a teenager I was walking in-between some apartment buildings taking a short cut home. A friend of mine saw me coming and hid behind a wall. I didn't notice him at all. When I got to that wall he jumped out to scare me. I just reacted and punched him in the face before I even knew it was him.

I was unaware, but still went first in that round. It sounds like your PC just has some very fast reactions. My friend never did try that stunt on me again.

 

[clearstream]

No. I am saying that Alert means that at initiative, they are aware.

I see. That doesn't work for me as an interpretation because it implies that Alert can do something beyond the words in the feat. That it will automatically make its possessor aware of creatures - even those with abilities that should prevent that character being aware of them, such as etherealness. Well, no kittens will die if we each go with our preferences

I am applying basic logic:

Surprise: "Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Alert Feat: "You can’t be surprised while you are conscious. "

Ergo, with the alert feat, you do notice threats at the start of the encounter.

Again, the thing can still be hidden or obscured while you are aware of its existence, in general.

That's an understandable reading, but not really a logical claim: it ignores the logical system that the rules are laid out with. A general rule for surprise is the first line you quote. Feats create exceptions to general rules. The Alert feat creates the exception summarised in the second line you quoted. Ergo with the feat, you can't be surprised - regardless of what you notice - while you are conscious. Otherwise, logically, if you somehow didn't notice something - while conscious - it must surprise you. But the feat says that can't happen!

The version of Alert that I think would meet your purpose would read something like "While you are conscious, you always notice threats at the start of an encounter".

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Technically, reading strictly, this is incorrect. It explicitly says that the character cannot be surprised, not that the character cannot suffer the effects of surprise.

Exactly. If it had been meant to only mean that the character can't suffer the effects of surprised, it would have been worded differently.

All 'cannot be surprised' means is that they don't lose their action on the first round of combat. They could still get shot by an arrow from ambush. I think some people are reading 'surprise' in the general sense of the word, which is not the intention of Alert.

It pretty clearly is the intention of Alert.

 

[FrogReaver]

I see. That doesn't work for me as an interpretation because it implies that Alert can do something beyond the words in the feat. That it will automatically make its possessor aware of creatures - even those with abilities that should prevent that character being aware of them, such as etherealness. Well, no kittens will die if we each go with our preferences

I can see both readings. I think one plays better but of course if you dislike how it plays then do whatever.

That's an understandable reading, but not really a logical claim: it ignores the logical system that the rules are laid out with. A general rule for surprise is the first line you quote. Feats create exceptions to general rules. The Alert feat creates the exception summarised in the second line you quoted. Ergo with the feat, you can't be surprised - regardless of what you notice - while you are conscious. Otherwise, logically, if you somehow didn't notice something - while conscious - it must surprise you. But the feat says that can't happen!

The version of Alert that I think would meet your purpose would read something like "While you are conscious, you always notice threats at the start of an encounter".

Sounds like a very logical reading. We know surprise only occurs when you don't notice any threat. Since alert feat makes you incapable of being surprised it would be logical to view the feat as allowing you to notice a threat. The alternative is to say that it changes the surprise rules such that the chraracter with the feat doesn't need to notice a threat. Both are logical readings. IMO one plays significantly better though.

 

[clearstream]

Exactly. If it had been meant to only mean that the character can't suffer the effects of surprised, it would have been worded differently.

I responded to that, interstitially. Technically, it can only mean that the character can't suffer the effects of surprised.

It pretty clearly is the intention of Alert.

Evidently, that is not clear