Initiative, Combat Stances, and Types of Actions!

[GrahamWills]

What might it look like to have initiative modified by combat stance, and by the type of action you last took?

I used the weapon speed and spell duration based initiative modifiers in AD&D in a recent campaign, together with missile fire always going before melee. It worked pretty well. I used a single group roll or initiative for each side, so the order within each side was determined by their stance. Makes monks and dagger builds way more of a fun option, and it’s fun to see a caster decide to cast based on how fast they can get the spell off.

The fact that there was group initiative meant play was speeded up overall and the fact that players could decide their order made it easier for them to plan — even if enemies might go between, knowing you are always going to get a couple of arrows fired before the rogue jumps out of hiding and then the paladin swings his big sword makes for smooth combats and allows players to develop nice tactics. I didn’t think it was going to work out half as well as it actually did!

 

[aramis erak]

L5R 5 uses stances. The stance is one of the 5 rings (attributes)...
WHich stance determines which ring your action uses. If the action requires a different ring, it can't be done in other stances. So, water spells and first aid require water stance. Fire Spells and inspiring speeches require fire. etc. Most generic attacks can use any ring, but specific techniques specify the needed ring.

This is about the max level of tracking I care personally to bother with. I want to make some stance dice with the elemental symbols on them.

The stance by previous action sounds like a bit too much work.

THe 3rd playtest draft of MGT1E had a nifty system - whenever initiative was 6, you could act, and the lower of the dice on the 2d6 task roll is the new action. Non-task actions (including movement) had specific initiative costs.

 

[dragoner]

So, @Bawylie reminded me of an idea I've been kicking around in my WIP game. IT's not a new idea, but it combines elements from several games.

What might it look like to have initiative modified by combat stance, and by the type of action you last took?
There are a few ideas here, not all of which need to be combined into one system. Any combination could be interesting.
NOTE: in this system, you get one action, free movement like in 5e dnd, and 2 quick actions, per round. Quick actions can be used on turn or off, depending on what you're doing with them. You can also do incidental stuff without using an action, like opening doors and flipping switches or switching weapons.

• I don't like declaring actions at the top of the round, but if you cast a complex spell last turn, maybe that means you drop down the init in this round?
• If you take an aggressive stance, you get an init boost, but either are losing out on a defense boost, or outright take a penalty?
• If you take a defensive stance, you get to do something at the top of the round, but take your full turn at the end of the round? Or maybe get an extra quick action or something?
• Maybe a stance where you get no bonuses except that you can insert yourself into the init order at the end of another creature's turn?
• A protective stance would help you "tank" by imposing penalty to enemy action, but go toward the end like defensive stance?
• Perhaps certain combat skills give a bonus or penalty to initiative if they are what you have ready to fight with?

I think maybe you wouldn't roll initiative in this system, and instead it would be determined by your stance, and simply "PCs go first in their group" and let the PCs choose who goes first between PCs in a group?

ALternatively, who goes first in each group could be the result of a group check? Something like The One Ring's readiness rolls at the start of encounters? This would also be how you try to ambush or surprise an enemy, which could sometimes be accomplished simply by badly out-rolling them. "You draw unexpectedly as you realise that it's time to fight, and get the jump on the enemy." or even (counter-intuitively but very realistically) you outdraw the enemy bc you see one of them make a move for a weapon, and your reflexes are honed to respond to that without a thought. Basically, when initiative is called for, you can roll for tactical analysis, getting into an advantageous position, intimidating the enemy, hiding from sight to sneak and flank, or just outdrawing them and getting the jump on them. Number of successes on both sides is tallied, and used to determine init order.


Thoughts? Clarifying questions? Ideas on trying some of this out in 5e dnd?

One of the things that draws me back to classic traveller is the lack of an initiative system, it is just cleaner and faster, plus more realistic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One of the things that draws me back to classic traveller is the lack of an initiative system, it is just cleaner and faster, plus more realistic.

Can you give an example of how it's cleaner and faster? I've seen people run games without initiative of any kind, and I found it to be the opposite.

 

[dragoner]

Can you give an example of how it's cleaner and faster? I've seen people run games without initiative of any kind, and I found it to be the opposite.

What happened then?

I just have them state what they are doing and roll the dice in the combat turn; there is still planning, surprise, and such where initiative is role played out. Usually have everyone state if they hit or not and if they were hit, figure damage, and then go to next turn. I like the simultaneity.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

What happened then?

I just have them state what they are doing and roll the dice in the combat turn; there is still planning, surprise, and such where initiative is role played out. Usually have everyone state if they hit or not and if they were hit, figure damage, and then go to next turn. I like the simultaneity.

Yeah that is how it was run, and it was...terrible. Like 20 minutes straight of that moment in a regular D&D game where everyone starts just trying to tell the DM what their initiative is.

Finally we just...went clockwise. At the end we decided that it’s easier to just use initiative.

 

[dragoner]

Yeah that is how it was run, and it was...terrible. Like 20 minutes straight of that moment in a regular D&D game where everyone starts just trying to tell the DM what their initiative is.

Finally we just...went clockwise. At the end we decided that it’s easier to just use initiative.

You have to de-train people from D&D thought patterns. D&D does take 10x as long and is mind numbingly boring, usually I'd take that time to go to the bathroom or something.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You have to de-train people from D&D thought patterns. D&D does take 10x as long and is mind numbingly boring, usually I'd take that time to go to the bathroom or something.

Your experience of D&D is also opposite of mine, to be fair.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Yeah that is how it was run, and it was...terrible. Like 20 minutes straight of that moment in a regular D&D game where everyone starts just trying to tell the DM what their initiative is.

Finally we just...went clockwise. At the end we decided that it’s easier to just use initiative.

You can also do "spotlight". Whatever the GM deems most interesting; ask what that player is going to do. Even ask them to roll their dice. But then hold them in suspense with a quick cut to the next person. If someone wants to see the result of another player's action, that's fine; but they'll have to wait. Then move the spotlight to the next person.

Then, like what dragoner said - resolve everything all at once for those who acted; and then check in on those who held their actions in reserve.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You can also do "spotlight". Whatever the GM deems most interesting; ask what that player is going to do. Even ask them to roll their dice. But then hold them in suspense with a quick cut to the next person. If someone wants to see the result of another player's action, that's fine; but they'll have to wait. Then move the spotlight to the next person.

Then, like what dragoner said - resolve everything all at once for those who acted; and then check in on those who held their actions in reserve.

I guess I don't see the benefit of that, particularly in light of the extra round by round work involved.

But, I might see the benefit more if I had any significant experience of initiative being painful.