D&D 5E Making a 5E Variant I *Want* To Play (+thread)

[DND_Reborn]

No, you haven't, but you've shown that for two of your players, specifically, it is (you didn't provide figures for yourself). If you're only planning to use this for your group and their bizarre inability to count pips, then okay. I mean, people made errors? Counting pips on three dice? What the hell? But that should work for them, I guess.

No, it isn't true for "most people" - it might be, but you haven't proven that. You keep claiming this as a fact, and it's not. It's faster for two of your players. The fact that you're asserting pips or numbers is "irrelevant" is frankly proving my point completely. It's certainly not "irrelevant" - if you run the tests and again with numbered dice and they're not slower than pips, something severely messed-up is going on.

It's a pretty common sentiment. I didn't used to agree with it, but people here convinced me, and I would now say that unless you understand a rules-system in some detail, you probably shouldn't make major modifications to it. I mean, obviously no-one can stop you, but I think it's reasonable to criticise modifications made when the rules system isn't properly understood.

Okay, I'll be interested to hear how well this turns out for you, because you're trying to solve problems I also consider to be problems (except the combat one, I think you're the first person I've ever heard who suggested PCs need to miss more in 5E).

Well, your tone has hardly improved IMO. And FWIW I DID post numbers. Here, I'll quote it from the post for you:

I rolled 2d20 10 times, scanning the results to find the lower number, and it took me 11.25 seconds. Basically the time to pick up the dice and reroll them as I could scan them, see the numbers, and determine the lower by the time I had picked up the dice.

When I rolled 3d6 10 times, it took me 14.5 seconds. Mostly the time to pick up the dice because I had three to gather instead of 2, but there was a few times I had to pause to confirm my initial grasp of the number.

Try it. 2d20 with disadvantage IS faster than 3d6. I'll have a couple guys in the group do it tomorrow and let you know how they do.

The two players have been in our game for nearly two years and just over one year. To speculate that "something severely messed-up is going on" is pretty rude again. You said in other posts you know peoples' brains work differently for each individual, yet because it is easier for these two players to add numbers than pips, you think something is "messed-up".

I acknowledged this is for the people in my groups. That is all I have to work with. So, thus far for my groups it is 100% true for everyone and I have proven it as far as I can. Other people have even posted that scanning 2d20 is quicker than adding 3d6. Is it true for everyone? Probably not, and that is why I wrote "most people", not everyone.

Understanding a rule-system "in some detail" is not having every rule perfectly memorized. I doubt few people could claim such. In the point about Taking 10, I said I thought I had seen it, not that I was 100% positive. I will claim to understand 5E "in some detail" as I address rules on this forum for people asking questions quite often and others agree with my statements. So, I agree with you that a thorough understanding is important, but I won't agree with you that I lack a thorough understanding of the rules for 5E.

Follow along of course. Since we won't be playing a normal session next week, I might be able to get a couple players to do some play-testing if they are free. I'll certainly be posting my findings as the testing progresses.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It's not exactly getting rid of ability mods, but one rule I'm using in my next campaign (a highly modified 5e) is that characters can use their proficiency modifier in place of ability modifier if the ability modifier is higher. So character with high stats have a low-level advantage from their natural talent, but at high levels it's only your skill that really matters. Ability modifiers still have a use, though, since they often control frequency of use of various gained abilities (e.g. I can use this ability [Int Mod] times per long rest).

Minor note: you wrote "if the ability modifier is higher" and I think you meant "lower."

That is not surprising because I was thinking (after the comments this morning) that maybe I'll do a higher proficiency progression, and have them replace ability scores once proficiency is higher. So, I could have proficiency range from +2 to +11, but if your ability score is better (likely in some places at lower levels), you use it instead of proficiency.

Well, as they say, "great minds think alike."

 

[Ruin Explorer]

To speculate that "something severely messed-up is going on" is pretty rude again.

You didn't test that scenario so I didn't speculate that. I said I'd think that if you tested 3d6 with numbers vs 3d6 with pips and found 3d6 with numbers was faster, then one might conclude that. But you haven't tested that AFAIK.

And yeah, it would be pretty weird for experience players not to be able to count pips on dice pretty instantaneously. Most people are raised playing dice games. You don't see six pips and go "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 pips!" even mentally, you just know there are six - it's not even like reading a number. Like, if you had multiple people like that, it's be quite unusual.

Probably not, and that is why I wrote "most people", not everyone.

Switching to "most people" is not an improvement. It's still a claim for which you have no evidence based on your testing. "Some people" would be totally fair. If English isn't your first language, maybe the difference isn't obvious though (I mention this because I don't know, and it's a common issue on the internet to have people who write English so well you have no idea if English is their first language or not, but may have some minor areas where they're really confused about word-usage in this messy language (like a guy I saw a few days ago who didn't understand that the "feel" in "I feel like that might not be a great idea" and "I feel sad" is a fundamentally different usage of the word)

Understanding a rule-system "in some detail" is not having every rule perfectly memorized. I doubt few people could claim such. In the point about Taking 10, I said I thought I had seen it, not that I was 100% positive.

Okay, I guess for me not having Take 10 is such a huge thing for this particular issue that it shocked me that you not only hadn't considered it as a solution, but were trying to fix the problem without even knowing if 5E had Take 10 (which is a tremendous tool in reducing "Oh look -2 WIS Barbarian got a total of 18 on his Religion check whilst +3 WIS, Proficient Cleric got a total of 8). It seems like you should know the rules pertinent to what you're changing in more detail is my point. Less so knowing, say, the wilderness survival rules, I admit.

 

[TwoSix]

Minor note: you wrote "if the ability modifier is higher" and I think you meant "lower."

That is not surprising because I was thinking (after the comments this morning) that maybe I'll do a higher proficiency progression, and have them replace ability scores once proficiency is higher. So, I could have proficiency range from +2 to +11, but if your ability score is better (likely in some places at lower levels), you use it instead of proficiency.

Well, as they say, "great minds think alike."

That could work, yea. You could also have a feature (like Expertise) that lets you combine the ability mod (bounded to +4) and the proficiency mod for certain checks, depending on the amount of granularity you want.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Maybe an idea:

What if Proficiency Bonus, instead of being added to proficient stuff, was the maximum ability mod you could add to a roll if you were not proficient and replace the ability mod to a roll if it is higher than the ability mod.

Like, at level 1, even if you have 18 Wis (+3 mod), if you are not proficient in Wis (perception), you can only add a maximum of +2 (level 1 Proficiency Bonus). Same for saving throws.

Being proficient in a skill would let you add you full ability mod, and once the Proficiency bonus goes over the ability mod, you can replace the mod with your Proficiency bonus. Expertise would be Advantage on skill roll.

Weapon attack and damage rolls are always caped by your Proficiency.

This means modifiers to rolls are smaller (making task harder and AC harder to hit) while giving more meaning to Proficiency and Expertise.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That could work, yea. You could also have a feature (like Expertise) that lets you combine the ability mod (bounded to +4) and the proficiency mod for certain checks, depending on the amount of granularity you want.

Sure. But IME now were are in near tier 4 (16th level currently) expertise bumping the numbers often takes such skills beyond the realm of anyone even having a chance to counter/defeat it in a contested roll.

For instance, we have two rogues, both with expertise in stealth. In RAW, one with DEX 18, the other 16, they have +14 and +13 stealth mods, respectively. Now, throw in advantage for boots of elvenkind and/or invisibility, and their "typical" stealth totals end up around 28. Very few things in D&D have a passive score of 28 or better, or even a decent +8 to begin with for a chance to detect them.

Granted, these are powerful PCs, with expertise, and magic often (don't even get me going on Pass Without Trace!!! ), but still we had to house-rule nat 20's will see them so there is at least a chance, even remote, of them not winning the contested roll.

So, if I allowed proficiency to range to +11, with expertise allowing ability to add to it, I could get up to +15 which puts me in the same boat.

Which is why we switched to advantage for expertise. It makes you more likely to do well, without raising the ceiling. Since we allow multiple sources to stack, it still helps to employ magic items and/or invisibility.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Maybe an idea:

What if Proficiency Bonus, instead of being added to proficient stuff, was the maximum ability mod you could add to a roll if you were not proficient and replace the ability mod to a roll if it is higher than the ability mod.

Like, at level 1, even if you have 18 Wis (+3 mod), if you are not proficient in Wis (perception), you can only add a maximum of +2 (level 1 Proficiency Bonus). Same for saving throws.

Being proficient in a skill would let you add you full ability mod, and once the Proficiency bonus goes over the ability mod, you can replace the mod with your Proficiency bonus. Expertise would be Advantage on skill roll.

Weapon attack and damage rolls are always caped by your Proficiency.

This means modifiers to rolls are smaller (making task harder and AC harder to hit) while giving more meaning to Proficiency and Expertise.

Well, just to make sure I understand your concept, let's do a concrete example, okay?

Level 1 Cleric with STR 16 (+3 for this, I'll stick to RAW)
Without proficiency in Athletics, is limited to +2.
Gets to level 5 and proficiency +3, so now can certainly add the full +3 for STR mod to his STR check for Athletics.
At level 8, takes skilled feat and picks Athletics.
His bonus would jump to +6 (proficiency doubled) and when he reached level 9 (prof +4) it would increase to +8.

This way, proficient skills cap at +12 (double prof max in RAW) and every non-proficient could utilize full ability score mod of +6 or less (pretty much all of them sans powerful magic), whatever that score is?

But the Level 1 Cleric with WIS 16 (+3) and proficiency in Medicine would get the full +5.
It would increase to +6 at level 5.

Am I missing something? I see this as kind of an alternative way to accomplish the same thing I am trying to do. No better or worse really, just slightly different.

This is similar to an idea I had a long time ago about proficiency capping the contribution ability scores could make.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Well, just to make sure I understand your concept, let's do a concrete example, okay?

Level 1 Cleric with STR 16 (+3 for this, I'll stick to RAW)
Without proficiency in Athletics, is limited to +2.
Gets to level 5 and proficiency +3, so now can certainly add the full +3 for STR mod to his STR check for Athletics.
At level 8, takes skilled feat and picks Athletics.
His bonus would jump to +6 (proficiency doubled) and when he reached level 9 (prof +4) it would increase to +8.

This way, proficient skills cap at +12 (double prof max in RAW) and every non-proficient could utilize full ability score mod of +6 or less (pretty much all of them sans powerful magic), whatever that score is?

But the Level 1 Cleric with WIS 16 (+3) and proficiency in Medicine would get the full +5.
It would increase to +6 at level 5.

Not quite: you would not add the Proficiency to anything, its just a number that tells the maximum a character can benefit from its ability score in non-proficient skills.

So that lvl 1 cleric with STR and WIS 16, proficient in Medicine but not Athletic would have a bonus of + 2 to athletic (capped Proficiency since its a non-proficient skill) and a +3 Medicine skill mod (not capped by Proficiency because the cleric is proficient). At level 1, no matter how strong the cleric is, if he is not proficient in Athletic, he would only be at +2. There's a limit to how much a character can leverage its natural ability if he not practiced in some activities.

At level 5, when the Proficiency increases to +3, the cleric full STR (+3) would finally be fully added to athletic tests. Medicine would be the same (lets say the Cleric does not increases his stats with ASI, for simplicity).

Now at level 7 (8?), the when Proficiency increases to +4, his Athletic would not move (he's not Proficient), but his Medicine would go to +4, since he's proficient in Medicine and his ability score (Wis +3) is lower that his now +4 proficiency bonus.

Naturally you could use this with your new Proficiency progression.

Scrap that, it does not work.

 

[TwoSix]

Sure. But IME now were are in near tier 4 (16th level currently) expertise bumping the numbers often takes such skills beyond the realm of anyone even having a chance to counter/defeat it in a contested roll.

For instance, we have two rogues, both with expertise in stealth. In RAW, one with DEX 18, the other 16, they have +14 and +13 stealth mods, respectively. Now, throw in advantage for boots of elvenkind and/or invisibility, and their "typical" stealth totals end up around 28. Very few things in D&D have a passive score of 28 or better, or even a decent +8 to begin with for a chance to detect them.

Granted, these are powerful PCs, with expertise, and magic often (don't even get me going on Pass Without Trace!!! ), but still we had to house-rule nat 20's will see them so there is at least a chance, even remote, of them not winning the contested roll.

So, if I allowed proficiency to range to +11, with expertise allowing ability to add to it, I could get up to +15 which puts me in the same boat.

Which is why we switched to advantage for expertise. It makes you more likely to do well, without raising the ceiling. Since we allow multiple sources to stack, it still helps to employ magic items and/or invisibility.

Fair; if you want to avoid the "expertise breaking the BA curve" which I've seen other posters mention, than my suggestion wouldn't work.

In my own high level games (I'm running 2 games right now, both at 13th level), I simply compensate by giving their enemies the same tricks. Watchmen with Perception scores of +11 and Passive Perception of 26 are common.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Ok, another idea (this one may even WORK, can you imagine that?)

Health
HP at level 1: CON + Half HD
HP at higher level: Half-HD per level

Defense
Here's the twist: No attack rolls, all attacks are hit. The only variance is for how much? The attacker rolls its damage roll, the defender roll its HIT DIE + Dex (or Con for Barb, Wis for monks etc) (+prof, maybe?) and reduce the damage from the attack by the same amount. If the attacker has more than 1 attack, they can divide them as they wish or focus on a single target. AC buff from spells or features are added to the damage reduction. Armor's give increased DR. The attack action no longer represent the act of attacking, but the landing of a blow through an opening in the target's defenses. Character are considered attacking continuously during the round.

This way, all attacks are only partial hit and are taxing to the defender, unless they evaded the attack completely by reducing the damage roll to 0.

Skills & Saves
Proficient skills and saves are increased by Proficiency bonus (with your progression scale instead of the PHB's). Expertise gives advantage.