D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Maxperson]

The thing I didn't fully understand but am starting to wrap my head around is that for some people it's not just that certain races should be able to start with certain ability scores, but that other races...or at least some other races...should be limited to lower scores.

So it's not that Orcs (for example) need to be able to start with Strength 16, or 17, or 18, but that whatever that threshold is, Halflings and Gnomes are capped at some lower value.

Is that right?

Because a 1 foot Pixie probably shouldn't be running around with a 20 strength. Size matters for some people with how strong a creature should be able to be. Personally, I don't need realism to that degree, but other people do and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[dave2008]

If you call it an Orc, it is an Orc. Everything else is window dressing.

 

[Remathilis]

Pick three feats, call it a species.

Official species can suggest three or more feats, like abiliy boost, darkvision, misty step, skillset, whatever. A player can pick none, one, or some of these feats, or different feats to customize their own concept of the species. Happily, while leveling and gaining new feats, they can spend these feats to continue developing into a highly powerful species, such as a dragon.

Have I got a system for you!

Ancestries – PF2 SRD

pf2.d20pfsrd.com

 

[Guest 6801328]

Because a 1 foot Pixie probably shouldn't be running around with a 20 strength. Size matters for some people with how strong a creature should be able to be. Personally, I don't need realism to that degree, but other people do and there's nothing wrong with it.

But even if Pixies were a playable race, and even if they were given a -5 to strength, if a player really wanted a Pixie with 20 strength, they could eventually get there. Because of ASIs.

 

[Lord Twig]

I wasn't able to read all 18 pages, but the original quesiton is "What makes an orc an orc?" Well, I happen to have a Monster Manual printed in 1979 (4th edition) and it actually has a lot to say about orcs.

We can ignore most of the stat block, Frequency, No. Appearing, and stuff like that, but here are a few interesting lines:
INTELLIGENCE: Average (low)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
SIZE: M (6' + tall)

Then the description:
Orc tribes are fiercely competitive, and when they meet it is 75% likely that they will fight each other unless a strong leader (such as a wizard, evil priest, evil lord) with sufficient force behind him is on hand to control the orcs. Being bullies, the stronger will always intimidate and dominate the weaker. (If goblins are near, for example, and the orcs are strong enough, they will happily bully them.) Orcs dwell in places where sunlight is dim or non-existent, for they hate the light. In full daylight they must deduct 1 from their dice rolls to hit opponents, but they see well even in total darkness (infravision).

Then there is several paragraphs talking about know orc tribe names how many leaders, chiefs and sub-chiefs there are depending on the number of orcs in a group and orc lairs. An interesting note in there is that there will be "females equal to 50% of the number of males, young equal to 100% of the number of males". The following paragraph says orcs gain a +1 on hit dice and morale checks when fighting near their tribal standard.

This paragraph is interesting:
Orcs are cruel and hate living things in general, but they particularly hate elves and will always attack them in preference to other creatures. They take slaves for work, food and entertainment (torture, etc.) but not elves whom they kill immediately.

A couple short paragraphs about tunneling/mining and the languages they speak (orc, goblin, hobgoblin, ogre and lawful evil), then there is the physical description:
Orcs appear particularly disgusting because their coloration - brown or brownish green with a blueish sheen - highlights their pinkish snouts and ears. Their bristly hair is dark brown or black, sometimes with tan patches. Even their armor tends to be unattractive - dirty and often a bit rusty. Orcs favor unpleasant colors in general. Their garments are in tribal colors, as are shield devices or trim. Typical colors are blood red, rust red, mustard yellow, yellow green, moss green, greenish purple, and blackish brown. They live for 40 years.

Final paragraph:
Half-Orcs: As orcs will breed with anything, there are any number of unsavory mongrels with orcish blood, particularly orc-goblins, or-hobgoblins, and orc-humans. Orcs cannot cross-breed with elves. Half-orcs tend to favor the orcish strain heavily, so such sorts are basically orcs although they can sometimes (10%) pass themselves off as true creatures of their other stock (goblins, hobgoblins, humans, etc.).

So wow. The 70s. Different time to be sure. I was a young kids in the 70s, and it was honestly pretty bad. But yeah, we have come a long way.

My 2cp on the topic of orcs and racism...

It has been said that the words used to describe the savagery and other unpleasant attributes of orcs has also been used to describe blacks and other people of color. But the thing is, I don't think this is a problem with the description of orcs, which are a fantasy alien race created or shaped by a fictional god to be an evil army of savage killers. There is no race in the history of the real world that has anything like orcs. They are complete fiction.

The problem is that racist people have been describing real people of other ethnicities as the same as fictional savages. It honestly seems more far more insulting to me to suggest that orcs are like black people, therefore they shouldn't have a -2 intelligence. WHAT!? Orcs are a fictional alien race that are NOT like any type of human. Any suggestion that they are is frankly insulting. And the fact that racists have described people as orc-like is the insult, not the orcs themselves.

So yeah, keep the fictional evil alien bad guys, lose the racism that suggest that normal, regular people are the same as a fictional alien race.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It has been said that the words used to describe the savagery and other unpleasant attributes of orcs has also been used to describe blacks and other people of color. But the thing is, I don't think this is a problem...

Honestly I just don't even know what to say at this point.

 

[Maxperson]

But even if Pixies were a playable race, and even if they were given a -5 to strength, if a player really wanted a Pixie with 20 strength, they could eventually get there. Because of ASIs.

Not if there's a racial maximum. There are people out there who want that level of realism. Personally, I think they should change the game themselves.

Also, what do you think the odds or that someone would make a pixie PC, buy up to a 15 strength, get the -5 dropping down to a 10, and then put every stat increase into strength? I'm going to go with freaking low. That PC would be gimped big time in comparison to a stronger race.

 

[Lord Twig]

Honestly I just don't even know what to say at this point.

Okay. Wow. That is some incredibly dishonest editing and is not at all what I said.

A more complete quote would be "But the thing is, I don't think this is a problem with the description of orcs". I then start the next paragraph saying that the problem is describing real people as being like a savage fictional race. That is completely opposite of what you are suggesting I said with your dishonest quote.

I can't even... Urgh! I can't even describe how upsetting it is to see that! Shame on you!

 

[Chaosmancer]

First, there are some good points here! But...


With STR +2 universal to all orcs, but not all humans put a +1 in STR and take a feat that also grants a +1 in STR.

So, overall, orcs are "just stronger" than Humans.
And, elves are more dexterous than Humans.
And so on...

It is also why a lot of table like capping ability scores at 18, but your racial modifier increases the cap. So, using this, orcs would have a max STR 20, while a human would be limited to 19 (if you put a ASI +1 from human into STR).

And to a lot of players, myself included, orcs should be stronger than humans (overall, that is... ).

Houseruling doesn't change what the RAW is.

Also, sure, not all humans do that. So all orcs are stronger than some humans, but humans are just as strong if they care to be.

And "I am stronger than most humans" is not what people are talking about, they want stronger than all humans. Which Orcs aren't. Orcs are only stronger than humans how don't decide to be strong.

And, again, the feat is just to match that 17 exactly. Humans can get a 16 just fine, which is mechanically identical.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Also, what do you think the odds or that someone would make a pixie PC, buy up to a 15 strength, get the -5 dropping down to a 10, and then put every stat increase into strength? I'm going to go with freaking low. That PC would be gimped big time in comparison to a stronger race.

Very low probability. I mean, very high probability in the entire D&D ecosystem, but very low probability at any one table.

But...would it really be a problem for you if somebody did?

Would it be a problem if D&D went to floating +2/+1, and somebody showed up with at your table with a 17 strength halfling.