D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[Chaosmancer]

Putting forth some thoughts on the arguments I've seen, mostly from @Helldritch

Humans in Rubber Masks/ Tropes

Look, all fantasy races are pretty much just humans in Rubber Masks. Taking orcs, which are depicted as violent, crude, destructive and cruel... just like the people from Mad Max, or that group from Walking Dead, or those people in The Purge, or any of literally dozens of other depictions.

Every single trope that a race in DnD exemplifies, some human group has had that exact same trope in fiction. With the exception of Warforged and Robots, which are their own separate trope.

Speaking of tropes the "orcs don't cast spells" is just wrong. Not only do we canonically have spellcasting orcs (Claws of Luthic as well as various shaman archetypes scattered about) but the moment I tell my players one of the orcs is in long robes and carrying a staff, they are going to call that orc out as a spellcaster. The dress and other signifiers are far more powerful than race, unless I have specifically called out that a race is incapable of magic.

But Orcs are just stronger than Humans

Right, no they aren't.

We are going to assume point buy or standard array, because rolling has a whole host of issues.

Orcs take their 15, add their +2, get a 17. That is worth +3 on their stat mod.
Humans take their 15, add their +1, get a 16. Also worth +3 on their stat mod.

But, I hear you say, 17 is higher than a 16, so the Orc is still stronger. Well, you are right. So, I'll take a variant human and grab, random feat searching Athlete. Now my human also has a 17, and is equally strong to an orc.

Oh, and I can do that for literally any ability score mod.

17 Intelligence with Linguist
17 Wisdom with Observant
17 Con with Durable
17 Dex with Athlete again
17 Charisma with Actor.

So, a human can be as strong as an Orc, graceful as an Elf, tough as a Dwarf, Charismatic as a Tiefling, Smart as a Gnome, Wise as a Firbolg.

So, really, there isn't a lot of point in it. This stats are already not telling us anything about the races as a whole, because they are all, well, just as good as humans. And that is it.


Also, I saw @Bagpuss pull this tired old argument out.

But, I want flaws for my character

Stats aren't flaws. They really, really are not.

First of all, if you don't roleplay them, they aren't flaws, they are just mechanical weaknesses.

Second of all, you can roleplay anything inspite of your stats. I could take a paladin who is a terrible singer, despite them having a high charisma and Performance proficiency (they are an excellent dancer, as befits a noble of the court). So, I can still have a flaw (bad at singing) despite the mechanics being there for me being good at singing.

And, most of the best flaws, greed, stubborness, wrath, naivety, none of those are mechanical in nature.

Finally, A character with 8 strength and 8 con can strap a 90 lbs bag to their back, and jog an 8 hour, 30 mile marathon, without suffering a single penalty. That is a weak, sickly character doing something most of us probably could not. So, if 8 strength isn't really all that weak, except when it comes to combat and mechanical rolling, then it isn't really a meaningful flaw. All it is is a mechanical penalty, making you more likely to fail at simple tasks.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So, a human can be as strong as an Orc, graceful as an Elf, tough as a Dwarf, Charismatic as a Tiefling, Smart as a Gnome, Wise as a Firbolg.

This is just because Variant Humans are too good. I'd definitely forbid them from stacking their normal +1 with one from the free feat.

 

[DND_Reborn]

First, there are some good points here! But...

But Orcs are just stronger than Humans

With STR +2 universal to all orcs, but not all humans put a +1 in STR and take a feat that also grants a +1 in STR.

So, overall, orcs are "just stronger" than Humans.
And, elves are more dexterous than Humans.
And so on...

It is also why a lot of table like capping ability scores at 18, but your racial modifier increases the cap. So, using this, orcs would have a max STR 20, while a human would be limited to 19 (if you put a ASI +1 from human into STR).

And to a lot of players, myself included, orcs should be stronger than humans (overall, that is... ).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

At best, you are effectively eliminating the need for primary ability scores for classes since everyone can use their favorite ability score anyway. 4e did this to a certain degree with the Melee Training feat (which was a patch because many classes used weird stats on Int, Con, or Cha to hit with melee attacks, but were forced to use Str for Basic Attacks like OAs) or 3.0 Psionics, where every discipline was tied to a certain score (Str for Psychmetabolic, Wis for Clairsentience, Cha for Telepathy, etc). Note that both of these were not especially well received (as 3.5 psionics abandoned it, and 4e viewed it as a feat tax).

At worst, you are going make every class MAD, esp if some of these abilities don't look especially racial (or put another way, there is no reason a wizard with an 19 dex can't move after passing a save, but an elf with a 14 dex can). I guess you can say you have to specialize based on your ability scores (so you can't have the dexterous wizard bonus, the strong wizard bonus, or the tough wizard bonus, you have to choose) but that still ends up limiting certain options to certain races (why should goliaths be better abjurers, or gnomes be better battlemasters?) but you've broken it down the suboptional stage rather than the class stage.

Personally, I think at the point you'd be better untying ability scores from class altogether, much like how it was in OD&D. You could have spell attacks/DCs purely based on class level rather than proficiency+ability mod, for example. You could also institute some manner of weapon specialization to allow warrior types to rely less on raw ability and more on training and class-derived bonuses. You could also slow down the bonuses from ability scores to something closer to Basic D&Ds (max +3) so that while a strong fighter might have an edge in raw talent, a dedicated gnome fighter could close the gap with class ability.

I disagree, as you could probably guess.

I have no problem with stronger characters being better as certain builds within a class, though Wizard is the only one likely to line up with subclass, and even that is just one example of the sort of bonus possible. If I had my way, wizard subclasses wouldn’t be schools of magic, but there it is.

And a gnome would still be quite capable of putting strength ahead of Int. It just wouldn’t be the default. So, a gnome could be a strength wizard if they want to.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

didn't like 4e's 'use whatever' approach as then everyone was still doing the same thing but used different stat. This just broke the illusion that the abilities actually represented something.

That’s why my idea includes the class working different in some way based on what stat you use.

The ability scores very much matter. A strong character will be different from a wise character regardless of what class they pick, but in ways relevant to the class they pick.

 

[Remathilis]

I disagree, as you could probably guess.

I have no problem with stronger characters being better as certain builds within a class, though Wizard is the only one likely to line up with subclass, and even that is just one example of the sort of bonus possible. If I had my way, wizard subclasses wouldn’t be schools of magic, but there it is.

And a gnome would still be quite capable of putting strength ahead of Int. It just wouldn’t be the default. So, a gnome could be a strength wizard if they want to.

"the gnome flexes bicep. Make a Dexterity save."

Yeah, at that point just get rid of ability scores.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

"the gnome flexes bicep. Make a Dexterity save."

Yeah, at that point just get rid of ability scores.

You can reduce literally anything to the absurd if you want to.

The wizard casts spells via extensive study and practice and discipline.

Which can absolutely be a physical endeavor. See; the dancing mages of the Deathgate Cycle, for instance. Each spell is a physical act, requiring absolute precision of full-body movement. It isn’t a stretch at all to make that any of the physical attributes.

 

[Guest 6801328]

The thing I didn't fully understand but am starting to wrap my head around is that for some people it's not just that certain races should be able to start with certain ability scores, but that other races...or at least some other races...should be limited to lower scores.

So it's not that Orcs (for example) need to be able to start with Strength 16, or 17, or 18, but that whatever that threshold is, Halflings and Gnomes are capped at some lower value.

Is that right?

 

[Tallifer]

Pig faces of course. And pie in a ten by ten room.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The thing I didn't fully understand but am starting to wrap my head around is that for some people it's not just that certain races should be able to start with certain ability scores, but that other races...or at least some other races...should be limited to lower scores.

So it's not that Orcs (for example) need to be able to start with Strength 16, or 17, or 18, but that whatever that threshold is, Halflings and Gnomes are capped at some lower value.

Is that right?

Well, speaking for myself, this issue with smaller creatures having STR 16+ isn't about the modifier (since in 5E STR is also about how well you can apply your strength, etc.), but more about carrying capacity and the size difference. In that respect, I think smaller creatures should have disadvantage when trying to grapple medium size, etc. They also should not be able to carry as much IMO. Unfortunately, for 5E simplicity reigns supreme, so instead of having weights for small-size equipment and such, they made grappling ok within one size category and made carrying capacity the same for small and medium sizes.

Anyway, this is why our table's houserule is small creatures calculate their carrying capacity as if their STR was 4 (or 3...? i don't recall LOL) points lower. So, we could have a Gnome with STR 20 and +5 modifier, but that PC would only be able to lift, drag, etc. as if their STR was 16.