D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun

It would need a comprehensive psionics system. Psionics were a big thing for Dark Sun given how magic works on Athas. I'm not sure the current approach in favour with WotC would really support Dark Sun particularly well (or how it handles magic either to be honest).

If they continue with psionics being just an invisible mage hand and existing abilities with a fluffy "comes from my brain" description, it would be a book I would enthusiastically skip.
 

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It is ok, I did not spot the satire, shame on me.

But seriously it is totally difficult to express to newer generations, who did not experience the "Kick" that Dark Sun was during AD&D 2nd times.
It was like the base vanilla game on steroids toppled over a few times. The gameplay when resolving a melee was incredible fast compared to a fight in vanilla. For those who want to experience the difference, you can simulate this like this:

Create two champion fighters level 5, give both of them a STR of 16, put both of them in a suit of full plate +3, attach a shield and maybe a +1 one-handed weapon to them. Then dice out a duel between them.

Now do the same thing, give both fighters a STR of 24 put them out naked for an AC of 10, and give each of them some big two handed weapon. Roll a duel between them. That is how DS felt like back then, when compared to some vanilla.

Yeah. It has to feel desperate. It has to have that ambiance. If it doesn't have the feels, it aint truly DS for me. There is no other setting like it but you are right, trying to describe this can be troublesome. Someone is probably best looking at my passion and excitement rather than listening to my verbal descriptions.
 

I feel the 5e Dark Sun Setting Guide can focus on a "basic" section of the book, that closely models the original 2e boxed set.

Then have separate sections for "expansions" with options that the DM can easily add or ignore.



So the "basic" races are:

• Human
• Elf / Elf-Human
• Dwarf / Dwarf-Human
• Giant-Human (Large!)
• Halfling
• Thri-Kreen



The "basic" classes are something like:

Martial

• Rage Barbarian ≈ savage "Fighter"
• Champion Fighter ≈ mercenary "Fighter"
• Battlemaster Fighter ≈ "Gladiator"
• Hunter Ranger
• Thief Rogue
• Assassin Rogue ≈ "Minstrel" (with disguise, performance, impersonation, called "minstrel" to disambiguate from 5e Bard)

Arcane
• Wizard ≈ "Defiler" (any highest slot level spell defiles) / "Preserver" (avoid highest slot level; split into lower slot levels)
• Eldritch Knight Fighter (?) ≈ "Templar" (so dragon Wizard and enforcer Templar can share same arcane spell list?)

Divine
• Cleric (animistic PSYCHIC attunement with each cosmic elemental force, lacking any concept of "worship")
• Moon Druid (mostly place-bound NPCs? venerating the lifeforms and elements of a specific landscape feature)

Psionic
• level 1 psionic feat

• Psi Knight Fighter
• Soul Knife Rogue
• Psychic Soul Sorcerer
• Psion (?)



Optional classes that seem to resonate Dark Sun tropes:

In a separate section, offer an "expansion" of class options, that the DM can add or ignore. Something like:

Psionic
• Glamor/Swords Bard (psionic?) ≈ entertainers who psionically manipulate
• Lore Bard (psionic?) ≈ rare scholars (save history!)
• Shadow Monk (psionic?) ≈ planar mystics of the Black
• Goo Warlock (psionic?) ≈ dominated by insane mindstuff residues within the Black

Arcane
• Fey/Hexblade Warlock ≈ elf magic, pact with planetary plant lifeforce; elves are wasteland nomads who cherish plants

Divine
• Paladin
(human oath: Conquest!)
(human oath: Vengeance: survive by any means)
(elf oath: Ancients: preserve plant life, punish defilers)
(dwarf oath: Oathbreaker: commune undead "banshee" dwarves in the Gray, who failed to finish their focus while alive)
(rare multi-species oath: Devotion: help each other survive, withdrawing from corrupt dragon-sorcerer civilizations)



Setting

Planes

• Material ≈ planet Athas
• Elemental ≈ the four elements
• Black ≈ an empty bleak version of the astral, faint dreamy mindstuffs ≈ the fifth element
• Gray ≈ grayish version of Shadowfell

"Basic" region
• On Athas, the "basic" setting is the region of Tyr

"Expansion" with OPTIONAL regions in a separate section of the book
• Regions that can represent other timelines in the Dark Sun setting
• Advanced psionic utopian civilizations, far from Tyr, around the planet of Athas, being points-of-light oases struggling to survive against the wastelands
 
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So, I have heard of Dark Sun but have not played or read it. After looking through this thread, It sounds cool. Where do I begin my journey?
I also second the suggestion of the original boxed set. In addition if you find you actually like what you find there, you might want to check out The Burnt World of Athas. It was the Official Unofficial Dark Sun web site during 3.x era. There's a lot of high quality community produced material, some of which based on drafts of DS products that were shelved when WotC bought TSR. IMO it does a great job on expanding the setting lore, while remaining close to the original DS spirit.
 

I wish them to keep their hands of it, from their UAs on psionics especially the subclass thing except UAMystic3, I do not believe they could do it satisfactory atm. Also it seems not to fit into todays Zeitgeist anymore without altering it to be not recognizable anymore, so in other words it would not be Darksun for me.

From your suggestions ranging from gnomes, paladins and new races I see that you do not like Darksun anyway at least the Darksun I like.

The Darksun I like has no gnomes, no paladins no relevant connection to other worlds, no arcane casters except wizards and a true psion class, and Wotc will not do that, so I do want them to stay away.

So you would rather let it die? I mean, if they don't do anything about it, the only people who will know Darksun will be the old grognards like us.
And for me, loving a setting (or movie, or book) also means loving to share it, to make it available to as many people as possible.

It reminds me of old guard comic book fans detesting Marvel movies because it changed the nature of their hobby. Yeah, but they also put super heros in the hands and heads of billions of people...

I am not attacking Coroc, BTW. I can understand the feeling, and I wonder myself what would be better about my beloved Planescape: no new version or a version that I would consider denatured... Not easy...
 

How I'd do it. Long post incoming...

Races - reskin half-orcs as muls, except replace Savage Attacker with something more defensive/endurance based. Half-giants need a bit of a boost over the rather underwhelming goliath, but size L is just too difficult to balance with other PC races. Kreen would be required, of course. Elves lose racial weapon proficiencies and cantrips, gain an increased movement speed. Dray are breath-weapon-less dragonborn with darkvision.

Character creation - I'd allow all PCs to take a feat at first level, as a sop the the 2e days when Dark Sun PCs were Just Better. Wild Talent is a feat, so if you want to be one, this is how.

Classes: no spellcasting bards. Remove the class entirely or else provide an alternate that replaces all spellcasting abilities with leadership/negotiation based abilities for military leaders or dune traders (and alter proficiencies accordingly). Four new cleric domains, one for each element (you could get away with using Light as Fire if you have to), templar clerics can use existing domains depending on their sorceror-king. Paladins can stay but may have the tenets of their oaths rewritten to better fit the setting. No arcane tricksters or spellblades. Perhaps a new rogue subclass specialising entirely in poison? Only warlock patrons available are the sorceror-kings. No sorcerors, at all, unless this is how you decide to do psionics.

Templars: drawing heavily from Lynn Abbey's take. Sorceror-kings can hand out templar medallions to anyone regardless of class, these are minor magic items that allow a minimal level of communication between wearer and sorceror-king (and one-way monitoring), not all templars are actually capital-T templars mechanically (this is a part of the new 'Templarate Member' background but also can be gained in play if a PC wants to enter the service of a sorceror-king). Sorceror-kings can empower both cleric and warlock templars, and these two classes get a medallion as their holy symbol/arcane focus.

Psionics: I have no preferred implementation at this stage, but for me, psionics should 1) require no material or verbal components, 2) require no preparation, 3) use a unique and traditionally 'psionic' spell/effect list, not just blindly use everything off the sorceror spell list, 4) be able to choose any mental ability score for their casting, not be locked into a single one. Wild Talents should have an actual psionic effect that they can use, not just a psionic dice like the UA feat chain gave them.

Wizards: defiling should be a temptation for all wizards, it shouldn't be defilers/preservers as subclasses. I'd make 'Defile' a bonus cantrip that every wizard gets at first level, is usable as a bonus action, and boost the next spell cast (or remove a setting-wise penalty to wizard spellcasting, alternatively). Not sure exactly what benefits it gives, but they'd have to be noticeable. Or perhaps defiling could be the default spellcasting method, and 'Preserve' could be a cantrip that just cancelled out the destruction that would otherwise have occurred. Problematic with reaction/bonus action spells though? Hmm. Wizards should have access to Deception and Sleight of Hand as proficiencies, to help conceal their spellcasting.

Equipment: Non-metal equipment is default and uses standard stats. Metal armour can just use the adamantine rules, Metal weapons need a similar simple universally applicable bonus, not sure exactly what, perhaps just a non-magical +1 to hit or damage, along with advantage on weapon breaking checks? While we're on the subject, metalsmithing tools should be a separate proficiency to non-metal weapon/armoursmithing tools. It's a small change, but in Athas metalsmithing skills should be as hard to come by as metal itself. Most of the funky Athasian weapons can just be implemented as reskins of existing weapons, perhaps with a damage type change - i don't think we need special rules or unique profiles for EVERYTHING.

Spells: any food/water creation spells need to be nerfed into the ground. Same with planar travel spells.

Setting: I'd put it in the same timeframe as 4e Dark Sun, after the death of Kalak. Tyr is now analagous to the reconstruction-era USA South, with the slaves nominally free under a theoretically democratic government, but largely still in thrall economically to the property-holding elite who use dominance in politics and night-time terror tactics to preserve most of the benefits they had under the old system. Some of Kalaks's templars still get spells (actually empowered by Sasha and Wyan) but keep it very secret.

The theme of the setting is survival and doing good in a bad place. The Sorceror-kings are evil, but also human. They're old, jaded, capricious, bored, cruel, arrogant, steeped in ancient rivalries and resentments, and hold life very cheaply indeed - they're not, as a rule, cackling psychopaths any more than they're idiots. Also, they DO provide security, food, water etc for the inhabitants of their cities, the old security vs freedom dilemma. It's not necessarily the only possible system, but it's the one that works now, and lots of well-meaning people might defend it out of fear of the alternative. PCs may choose to confront or try to overthrow the sorceror-kings as a long-term campaign goal, but that's for the level 20 range, and that's not the be-all and end-all of an Athas campaign. Founding and defending a free village or tribe, or a trading concern, opposing a particular noble house or slaving ring or powerful evil templar/defiler/psionicist or undead creature are other possible campaign goals. Small goods are worth doing. Doing all this while remaining good in a world where tyranny and slavery is the default mode of existence is the challenge. How much do you tolerate among your allies and those you make common cause with? How much will you compromise? What will you do for survival? Athas kills its inhabitants all the time and you can't help them all - who will you and won't you help, and how do you decide?

Thematically, Athas is THE 'social justice' D&D world. Slavery is front and centre and an evil to be fought. Environmental devastation is rampant and unambiguously the result of greed for power. There's a history (a long time back, but it's there, and there's still the odd creature around who remembers it) of humans trying to exterminate every other race, often successfully to create a 'cleansed' world. Law enforcement is profoundly brutal and serves at the whim of untouchable tyrants (even if you joined the Urikite templarate with high principles, intending to patriotically defend your city against crime and water theft and defilers messing up the city's grain fields, and psurlon cults, you still serve a monstrous ancient inhuman control freak with a history of successful genocide who demands absolute obedience to every command, and some of your fellow templars are the worst people imaginable but your king doesn't care at best and will take their side at worst). 5e DS should emphasise that opposing any of these (let alone all at once) is HARD.

Geography-wise, I'd try to expand the world a little beyond the Tyr Valley region. Rewrite the kreen grasslands to be more ecologically hostile, to explain why the sorceror-kings haven't moved there en masse long ago. Detail the Dead Lands to the south a bit more. Maybe make it a bit easier to get to Ur Draxa (even though it's very, very hard to stay free or even alive once you're there, much less leave the place!) Talk a bit more about Daskinor, and the ruins of Kalidnay, and allude to myths and rumours of other sorceror-kings in other continents and parts of the world (I once messed around with converting the PF Rise of the Runelords AP to Athas, making the titular runelord instead a forgotten sorceror-king called Karzoug Gnoll-Eater...). Take the goofiness out of the Last Sea region, the Orwellian happy-tyranny under insane psionic echoes playing out a millennia-old love triangle is fine, just make the water too salty to drink and get rid of the surfers and pacifist lizardmen. Oronis and Kurn is ok, but needs to be a cautionary tale. Oronis renounced defiling and rebuilt himself and his city, but the transition was long and painful and involved great suffering as Kurn was ruthlessly exploited by outside forces while its king was indisposed. Even now, there's unhappiness and people who resent Oronis for abandoning them for so long while he chased some self-indulgent dream, and Oronis himself is continually torn between allowing his people freedom and democracy vs the urge to intervene when he sees them making self-interested or ignorant decisions. And what does Oronis do to comply with Borys's tithe, anyway?

I think we're vanishingly unlikely to see any sort of campaign or adventure book for Dark Sun even if the setting gets updated, but in the case we do, then really the archetypical Dark Sun campaign would be 'the Prism Pentad except with the PCs as heroes this time around'. Complete sandbox. Start at level 5 or something, in Tyr or one of the villages surrounding it. The triggering event is Borys's demand for a tithe of slaves. The PCs become aware of this either through being connected to the new Tyr government when they receive Borys's demand, or else being the victims of one of Tithian's clandestine slave raids as he tries to fulfil the tithe without the rest of the Tyr council knowing, or even being emissaries of another city-state who are in Tyr and who have been instructed to ensure Tyr complies (cos even the other sorceror-kings are afraid of what Borys - or even Rajaat - might do if they don't). After this - sandbox based on player choice. Detail where the PCs might find out scraps of the lore of the true history of Athas - Kemalok, the Pristine Tower, Sasha and Wyan, some ancient undead creatures, even the living Sorceror-kings or the ruined fortresses of the dead ones. Tithian as interim villain (if he kills off Sadira, Agis, Rikus and the rest then that leaves the floor open for the PCs). Detail finding the Dark Lens and what it can do, or the Scourge. Detail what impacts the PCs choices might have - if they refuse the tithe, then maybe one of the other sorceror-kings will do it for them (Albeorn did it in the PP i believe) but they'll be out for restitution (and blood) after, so war is likely. There should be temptations for the PCs to become Rajaat's witting/unwitting instruments, either via transformation in the Pristine Tower, or by becoming a proxy sorceror-king via Sasha and Wyan. And at the end of the day the devil's choice between Rajaat and genocide, or Borys and tyranny, unless the DM wants to be a big softy and allow them to find a third way out. Bonus points for getting PCs to betray each other or take different sides in the final confrontation...

One of the better takes IMHO.
 

DS is too good to fall in the oblivion. It was too special, exotic, different and original, a blow of air fresh, the right update of planetary romance.

WotC could publish a "spiritual succesor", and later this becomes a "spin-off".

If I mention the videogame "Prince of Persia" you are imagining the titles by Ubisoft, not from the 90's years by Brøderbund Software. If this franchise has could be a cash-cow for Ubisoft thanks the righ title, Dark Sun may become very popular if there is a good videogame. The videogames may be fabulous hooks to revive old and less famous D&D lines

* Here there is a good reason to add characters with darker skins.

* If the genies can live in the elemental planes.... couldn't they try to invade Athas by fault of Borys the dragon of Tyr?

* I don't min the canon cosmology. The final fate of or souls in Athas is punishment for criminals and consolation for the innocents. And many souls later becomes fey petitioners in the black(shadowfell) or land withing wind(faywild).

* In my own story I allow divine spellcasters (neither elemental nor nature) to add a touch of "sword & sandal" about people suffering persecution because their faith isn't the official regalism ( = clergy controlled by lay powers, for example the king). I would also something of
xianxia literature. I would allow shamans summoning ancestors' souls and orisha/totem spirits with a game mechanic close to the vestige pact magic

* Athas is isolated, somebody suggest really is a demiplane, but not totally. Let's say in my opinion Tyr is like Australia, too far for European explores, but enough near for people from Philipines and others islands in the Pacific Ocean. I suggest a open door for future spin-off or even crossovers, for example a conflict cause by (plane-travelers) defilers who destroy the jungles of Jakandor island.

* I wouldn't discard a "reverse crossover", I mean not MtG planes adapted into D&D but D&D worlds in future expansions of Magic: the Gathering.

* 4th Ed suggested the idea some daikaiju (large strange beast) could be adored by savage tribes.

* The "land within the wind" is perfect for stories as "Conan exiles" about "survive and build your own stronghold". It may a potential joker card to allow new options.

* Weren't canon the Athasian genasies in 4th Ed?

* If DS was in DM Guild....what if anybody publishes a title about lifeshaping tech, with crossbows what reload themself and things like the yuuzan-vongs' organic biotechnology?
 
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So you would rather let it die? I mean, if they don't do anything about it, the only people who will know Darksun will be the old grognards like us.
And for me, loving a setting (or movie, or book) also means loving to share it, to make it available to as many people as possible.

It reminds me of old guard comic book fans detesting Marvel movies because it changed the nature of their hobby. Yeah, but they also put super heros in the hands and heads of billions of people...

I am not attacking Coroc, BTW. I can understand the feeling, and I wonder myself what would be better about my beloved Planescape: no new version or a version that I would consider denatured... Not easy...

I do not feel attacked, the old stuff is available still, and good DMs know that and will use it, and convert it. The regular player of a newer generation will not realize, where the fuzz some of us old grognards make about some setting comes from, unless they do an in depth comparison using the older game editions.

I would not call it "let it die", and you might have noticed, in the general material (DMG, PHB) they still refer to "outdated " setting material like GHK DL and DS.

It is rather the following (and I admit that motivation is a bit personal): My current players are an in between generation, they started wit ha bit of 1e 2e did loads of 3e and some 4e but never did Darksun. So if there is an official material available which throws over board all the good assumptions and restrictions and old school style, then it gets much harder for me to introduce my well thought out homebrew solutions for this topic.

As for the story continuation, DS never had this intense story line that other settings had, other than the main thing with Kalak and Draegoth etc.

So you have to wing story a bit anyway, so even for that I do not need new stuff because I think some of the old stuff is great, and my players do not
know it.

So my reasons a re selfish to a point and "idealistic" to another
 

So you would rather let it die? I mean, if they don't do anything about it, the only people who will know Darksun will be the old grognards like us.
And for me, loving a setting (or movie, or book) also means loving to share it, to make it available to as many people as possible.

It reminds me of old guard comic book fans detesting Marvel movies because it changed the nature of their hobby. Yeah, but they also put super heros in the hands and heads of billions of people...

I am not attacking Coroc, BTW. I can understand the feeling, and I wonder myself what would be better about my beloved Planescape: no new version or a version that I would consider denatured... Not easy...

If they can't do a somewhat faithful adaption then yeah let it die fan work is often good enough.

Doesn't have to be exact fire example light domain is good enough for a fire cleric. Less is more though only 4 domains, maybe a 5th for Templars.
 

I would like it all in one large book that is clearly intended to be its own thing. If it sells like hotcakes do an expansion - if not, at least DS fans got something.
 

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