D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun

[dave2008]

You couldn't GET the core rules flavorless enough to make FR and DS work.

It's not just Gods and subraces, things you would have to cut or change from the PHB to make it work for DS.

Barbarian: animal totem
Bard: Athas bards don't cast magic and are assassins.
Cleric: all domains but life and elemental ones
Fighter: Eldritch Knight
Monk
Ranger: all bonuses to survival and gathering supplies
Rogue: arcane trickster
Sorcerer
Warlock: all patrons
Wizard: all school specialization
All subraces of dwarves, elves and halflings.
Gnomes, drow, and half-orcs
Dragonborn and tieflings
Most of the weapons and armor section
Spells that allow survival bypass
The outlander and pirate background
Named spells (Bigby, Melf)

That should take care of Dark Sun. Should we move on to Birthright, Ravenloft and Dragonlance?

Seems like it could be handled in a few pages in a setting guide to me. I don't see the issue or need for a separate PHB.

 

[dave2008]

The tricky thing about Dark Sun is that it is, by original design, harsh, brutal and unforgiving. Its original incarnation, for all intents and purposes, required starting at 3rd level and having at least one other character ready to play, as death was as common as sand on Athas. Dunno what 4e did to it, since I skipped it, but that's what Dark Sun was originally.

I dunno if 5e's overall approach to the game of D&D really supports that truly brutal and unrelenting approach to a campaign world. It can be, definitely, but I don't get the impression WotC is interested in exploring that with 5e (it feels, at best, like a curiosity to them, but not one of significance).

If it doesn't focus on the fact that Athas is a brutal, harsh and unforgiving world, and support that with mechanics...then what would even be the point? It wouldn't be Athas then.

I agree. It definitely can be done with 5e, but will WotC do that. I'm very skeptical.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Seems like it could be handled in a few pages in a setting guide to me. I don't see the issue or need for a separate PHB.

I had a significant portion of my 5e campaign take place on Athas. I didn't even work out everything mechanically ahead of time, I just kind of decided as I went. It seemed to work just fine.....it felt like our old Dark Sun games, and there were different things that were challenging to the PCs than what they were typically concerned about. It had the right feel because of the tone and the setting elements and all that, more than any mechanical expression used to portray those things.

I don't think it needs to take nearly the level of overhaul that many are calling for. More like the equivalent of a sidebar for each chapter of the PHB that says 'here's how this goes on Athas".

 

[shadowoflameth]

I read a lot of interest from people. I would be interested in a Dark Sun book definitely. I read a lot of, 'I hope they don't ruin it with x.' Most of that can be easily resolved with 'don't use that part in your game.' Your players just never happen to encounter the thing that bothers you. Some though is harder. People want psionics. There are ki points and sorcerer points, so why not psionic points? It may not be perfect but it could work in general. For my part, I want psionics done in a way that is fun to play and I want defiling/preserving to work well. That that it's abuse could believably destroy the world or restore it respectively but not easily. For me, a good indicator that something works well is that some people but not all will want to play with it and find it useful. i.e in between Eldritch Blast and Master of the 5 Elements.

 

[Remathilis]

I had a significant portion of my 5e campaign take place on Athas. I didn't even work out everything mechanically ahead of time, I just kind of decided as I went. It seemed to work just fine.....it felt like our old Dark Sun games, and there were different things that were challenging to the PCs than what they were typically concerned about. It had the right feel because of the tone and the setting elements and all that, more than any mechanical expression used to portray those things.

I don't think it needs to take nearly the level of overhaul that many are calling for. More like the equivalent of a sidebar for each chapter of the PHB that says 'here's how this goes on Athas".

I keep coming back to this point: there are two ways WotC can do Dark Sun

a.) A totally faithful to the 2e setting conversion that requires a near re-write of the PHB (along with the MM and part of the DMG) to basically make a side-adjunct compatible game. WotC is NOT going to release a book that says "toss out half your PHB and every supplement we've produced since" for D&D, but they CAN get away with it if they make Dark Sun a stand-alone game and let people kit-bash it with other D&D products of they want.

b.) A 4e-inspired version where many of the common elements of the PHB are either reskinned or lightly adapted (akin to how WotC has handled Ravnica and Theros) but otherwise finds homes for all (or nearly all) of the classes and many of the races. This version HAS spellcasting bards, wild magic sorcerers, and eldtrich knights (all of which using a defiler/preserver mechanic) along with native tieflings, genasi, dray/dragonborn, etc because those things are in the PHB and they want to keep PC choices as varied as possible.

Ultimately, WotC will have to decide which is more important: Dark Sun being part of D&D or Dark Sun remaining faithful in adaptation. If keeping it D&D is important, then they go with a 4e style skinning. If setting purity is important, a separate game is needed to re-write, add, and remove all the things that would be needed to recreate the 2e version.

An individual DM can do what they want, but WotC is going to try to sell a book to that coveted 60%+ demographic, and a setting where you can't use most of the PHB classes isn't going to past the test.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I keep coming back to this point: there are two ways WotC can do Dark Sun

a.) A totally faithful to the 2e setting conversion that requires a near re-write of the PHB (along with the MM and part of the DMG) to basically make a side-adjunct compatible game. WotC is NOT going to release a book that says "toss out half your PHB and every supplement we've produced since" for D&D, but they CAN get away with it if they make Dark Sun a stand-alone game and let people kit-bash it with other D&D products of they want.

b.) A 4e-inspired version where many of the common elements of the PHB are either reskinned or lightly adapted (akin to how WotC has handled Ravnica and Theros) but otherwise finds homes for all (or nearly all) of the classes and many of the races. This version HAS spellcasting bards, wild magic sorcerers, and eldtrich knights (all of which using a defiler/preserver mechanic) along with native tieflings, genasi, dray/dragonborn, etc because those things are in the PHB and they want to keep PC choices as varied as possible.

Ultimately, WotC will have to decide which is more important: Dark Sun being part of D&D or Dark Sun remaining faithful in adaptation. If keeping it D&D is important, then they go with a 4e style skinning. If setting purity is important, a separate game is needed to re-write, add, and remove all the things that would be needed to recreate the 2e version.

An individual DM can do what they want, but WotC is going to try to sell a book to that coveted 60%+ demographic, and a setting where you can't use most of the PHB classes isn't going to past the test.

Which is why I recommend the middle way of smallish conversion document released on DMs Guild.

 

[Remathilis]

Which is why I recommend the middle way of smallish conversion document released on DMs Guild.

I could see that working; its less financially risky for WotC compared to a hardback, and opening it to the guild would allow them to fill in the gaps for setting options (races, subs, etc). I actually assumed after Eberron that small PDF reboots with accompanying DMsGuild support was the future of most classic settings.

But as a hardback? I don't see any options but a. or b.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I could see that working; its less financially risky for WotC compared to a hardback, and opening it to the guild would allow them to fill in the gaps for setting options (races, subs, etc). I actually assumed after Eberron that small PDF reboots with accompanying DMsGuild support was the future of most classic settings.

But as a hardback? I don't see any options but a. or b.

Yeah, that seemed like a no-brainer to me as well. Why hasn't that happened yet?

 

[Remathilis]

Yeah, that seemed like a no-brainer to me as well. Why hasn't that happened yet?

My guess is the work to profit ratio on the starter PDF isn't feasible.

 

[Haldrik]

I keep coming back to this point: there are two ways WotC can do Dark Sun

a.) A totally faithful to the 2e setting conversion that requires a near re-write of the PHB (along with the MM and part of the DMG) to basically make a side-adjunct compatible game. WotC is NOT going to release a book that says "toss out half your PHB and every supplement we've produced since" for D&D, but they CAN get away with it if they make Dark Sun a stand-alone game and let people kit-bash it with other D&D products of they want.

b.) A 4e-inspired version where many of the common elements of the PHB are either reskinned or lightly adapted (akin to how WotC has handled Ravnica and Theros) but otherwise finds homes for all (or nearly all) of the classes and many of the races. This version HAS spellcasting bards, wild magic sorcerers, and eldtrich knights (all of which using a defiler/preserver mechanic) along with native tieflings, genasi, dray/dragonborn, etc because those things are in the PHB and they want to keep PC choices as varied as possible.

Ultimately, WotC will have to decide which is more important: Dark Sun being part of D&D or Dark Sun remaining faithful in adaptation. If keeping it D&D is important, then they go with a 4e style skinning. If setting purity is important, a separate game is needed to re-write, add, and remove all the things that would be needed to recreate the 2e version.

An individual DM can do what they want, but WotC is going to try to sell a book to that coveted 60%+ demographic, and a setting where you can't use most of the PHB classes isn't going to past the test.

Option C. Both of the above.

Core Dark Sun that is faithful to the 2e box set. Plus optional expansions siloed in separate sections of the same book, that DMs can choose to opt into, or ignore.