D&D General Why DPR Sucks: Discussing Whiteroom Theorycrafting

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Sorry Snarf you're absolutely correct. I thought I was replying to Todd, not you. You didn't bring up any of that stuff. My bad. I apologize.

No worries. And I appreciate it, thank you. Plus, I've now got my favorite quote-

"Snarf you're absolutely correct."

I'll have to get a macro for that!

In the immortal words of Mistwell, "Snarf you're absolutely correct." :)
 

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A few years back I GMed a campaign and decided to track some data for the group. It was a combat heavy campaign. The players could expect 3 or more fights in a session. Here is the aggregate for the 5 characters that appeared more than 10 times.
PlayerDamageKillsBlood LossKnocked OutTeam KillerSessions
Hunter20624052838518
Open Hand21193483453222
Evoker384263176010321
Goliath Bard grappler455417102715
Devotion paladin312443102545722
(Team killer is damage dealt to teammates, the rest should be self-explanatory)
This data covers from level 1 to 11 and this campaign was pre-Xanathar.
Excess damage was not counted. If an enemy had 1 hit point then your crit counted for 1 damage.

This is just a snapshot of one table during one campaign but I thought it illustrated nicely how each player contributes in different ways. You've got the numbers above but here's what I saw as a GM:
  1. The Evoker is clearly captured in the numbers. She brought the pain and did everything she could to avoid it herself.
  2. The Paladin is mostly captured in the numbers. High hit points, shield master feat, and aura meant he was the tankiest person around. He would charge in and smite the heck out of anyone and everyone. The only thing missing is the healing he did.
  3. The monk was a hill dwarf whose Dex and Wis never went above 16. Definitely not built or utilized in the way most people would expect for a monk. And yet, he dealt decent damage, put plenty baddies out of their misery, stunned targets, and tanked a lot of damage with only one more KO than the paladin. All of that and he was often the only short rest reliant member of the group.
  4. The Hunter was the best at finishing off enemies at range (strong damage to kill ratio). He also brought some healing, was the scout of the group, and would off-tank as well. Just an all around great contributor.
  5. Then you have the grapple bard. Not great numbers right? Doesn't matter, he was the most encounter destroying thing to have ever sat at my table. The grapples, the control spells, the healing, and the flood of inspirations were devastating. But that doesn't show up at all.
I'm with the OP when it comes to how much I value things like DPR. I find it useful but it'll never tell the whole story for a game like DnD.
 

Stalker0

Legend
So to me the fundamental metric by which I as DM measure classes is their ability to make players feel "cool and special". When a player feels that way, the class is doing their job.

This is a combination of some niche protection, core mechanical competence, and "hooks" built in the class that allow a DM to easily adjust encounters to allow each player some time to shine.

Now DPR is a good mechanic when discussing "core competency"... fighter who wants his stick to be "good damage" and he is obviously at a mathematical level not doing "good damage" .... its going to be hard for the character to feel cool and special. Likewise DPR is a good way to evaluate different fighting options. A person who is using TWF vs THF ... well if the first person does significantly less damage they aren't going to feel good about their choice.

But DPR is simply one measure, and it has to be taken into a larger analysis of what the class offers. Further, as many classes are team focused you do have to look at DPR in terms of the entire Party's DPR buff. This is something people in the monk thread are doing now, talking about how the Monk's stun can augment the entire party's DPR...which is important.


Now in terms of Treantmonk's analysis, he was using DPR as a way to showcase that if your playing a Monk, you are not going to pull the "damage" lever to feel cool and special. You also won't be able to pull the "tank" lever because of its demonstrable lack of defensive abilities compared to other classes. That is something you can do with clear simple math. Now the murkier question is around the "control" element, ie the stun. Treantmonk's point is that the Stun is very hard to pull off, and is a control effect that casters can simply do better.

This is where the DM adjustment steps in. Treantmonk showcased average fort saves based on monster CR. That is not the full picture though, a DM with a monk in their party is expected to put in encounters here and there that let the monk show off. So I would expect more encounters in such a group with "low fort" monsters that are more stunnable.

That doesn't mean the average fort save analysis is useless ... but it probably should be adjusted a bit due to "DM favoritism". So I would adjust the average fort save by a few points to account for that.


So in summary, DPR is important....its just not enough. Since the removal of HP is the core combat proficiency, in a game that is at least partial focused on combat, a core way to feel important as a character is to do good DPR (either by yourself or by augmenting the party). And if its shown that a class does not do high DPR....then the analysis should review its other class features to determine if they are "enough" to justify the lower DPR.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
A few years back I GMed a campaign and decided to track some data for the group. It was a combat heavy campaign. The players could expect 3 or more fights in a session. Here is the aggregate for the 5 characters that appeared more than 10 times.
PlayerDamageKillsBlood LossKnocked OutTeam KillerSessions
Hunter20624052838518
Open Hand21193483453222
Evoker384263176010321
Goliath Bard grappler455417102715
Devotion paladin312443102545722
(Team killer is damage dealt to teammates, the rest should be self-explanatory)
This data covers from level 1 to 11 and this campaign was pre-Xanathar.
Excess damage was not counted. If an enemy had 1 hit point then your crit counted for 1 damage.

This is just a snapshot of one table during one campaign but I thought it illustrated nicely how each player contributes in different ways. You've got the numbers above but here's what I saw as a GM:
  1. The Evoker is clearly captured in the numbers. She brought the pain and did everything she could to avoid it herself.
  2. The Paladin is mostly captured in the numbers. High hit points, shield master feat, and aura meant he was the tankiest person around. He would charge in and smite the heck out of anyone and everyone. The only thing missing is the healing he did.
  3. The monk was a hill dwarf whose Dex and Wis never went above 16. Definitely not built or utilized in the way most people would expect for a monk. And yet, he dealt decent damage, put plenty baddies out of their misery, stunned targets, and tanked a lot of damage with only one more KO than the paladin. All of that and he was often the only short rest reliant member of the group.
  4. The Hunter was the best at finishing off enemies at range (strong damage to kill ratio). He also brought some healing, was the scout of the group, and would off-tank as well. Just an all around great contributor.
  5. Then you have the grapple bard. Not great numbers right? Doesn't matter, he was the most encounter destroying thing to have ever sat at my table. The grapples, the control spells, the healing, and the flood of inspirations were devastating. But that doesn't show up at all.
I'm with the OP when it comes to how much I value things like DPR. I find it useful but it'll never tell the whole story for a game like DnD.
This is just absolutely amazing. It's what I'd rather see in any discussion rather than "My experience says" "Here's my spreadsheet" or "I've felt that..."

This is live data about events that have actually transpired. Granted, there's not much way to tell if you're truthful with the data and there isn't anyone to double check it, but it's leagues better than just pulling out a calculator and considering everything settled.

Wonderful post, Devious.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
So to me the fundamental metric by which I as DM measure classes is their ability to make players feel "cool and special". When a player feels that way, the class is doing their job.
Y'know what? This is such an interesting point I have to highlight it.

Whether someone feels "cool and special" may entirely be based on how the player is approaching the character. For instance, a player that's being a character to "fill a role" may not have any love for the actual concept and may be disappointed purely because they would've preferred playing without healing, but they had to have somebody do it.

Meanwhile, someone playing to "try out the class" may only like it if it wows them in a very explosive way.

Meanwhile, someone playing a class they really love will usually feel they do amazing with the class.
 

This is just absolutely amazing. It's what I'd rather see in any discussion rather than "My experience says" "Here's my spreadsheet" or "I've felt that..."

This is live data about events that have actually transpired. Granted, there's not much way to tell if you're truthful with the data and there isn't anyone to double check it, but it's leagues better than just pulling out a calculator and considering everything settled.

Wonderful post, Devious.
Thanks, Asisreo. I could probably share some of the session spreadsheets if you really wanted to see the raw data.
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
No but DPR is more akin to Points Per Game as a stat then Player Efficiency Rating.
To use an old reference, even a chucker like Alan Iverson can make a PPG stat line look falsely impressive (when your points equal shots taken, something is awry).

Treantmonk, to his disservice, has not embraced a spirit of inquiry, and acknowledged the valid concerns regarding how he has judge the relative weight of what he has taken to be evidence.
No, rather, TM has done the opposite. Treantmonk stated on The Giant's in the Playground, the video is "just his opinion" and other people can have differing opinions.

No one enjoys having flaws in their conceptual paradigms pointed out, but if one is interested in the truth, or as clear a view of something as possible, taking the lumps and leaning into trying to understand the critics is necessary.

Retreating into the line of "it is just my opinion", means he has stopped listening to others, and is not interested in "the truth" merely just his view of it.

TM said as much on GITP when he stated that his opinion won't sway others, nor will others opinion sway him.

We are not talking science here, or even complex mathematical modeling of various decision points.....we are talking about "someone's opinion" that is being conflated with "facts" and is being discussed all across the Internet. Rough DPS is Points Per Game....a crude measurement.

The warlock is very much like Alan Iverson, it does DPS, it scores, but it takes a lot of shots, will not pass the ball, and will likely never set up someone else, not this baseline version.

Allen Iverson was such an amazing player.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Okay, the title? A little obnoxious and clickbait-y right?

That's my homage to this thread wherein it was "proven" that Monks, um, "suck":


That said, before you start angrily pounding on the keyboard in response, please note the following: math is fun. Math is good. There is nothing wrong with optimizing your characters, if that's your thing (and D&D in general, and certain editions of D&D moreso - 5e a little less, can encourage that optimization). This is more about the very real limits of DPR to "prove" the worth of a character. And even more about the over-reliance on a single, limited-use statistic .... "When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like it can be solved by DPR analysis."

One of the interesting things that you often see pop up in conversations about D&D and 5e is discussions about optimization, or, put another way, so-called "whiteroom theorycrafting." Since these converstions pop up so often, and have (in various more, or less, sophisticated forms since the 70s) I thought I'd put together a handy primer as to why "DPR" (damage per round) is an overused tool that does not accurately measure either class viability, build viability, or the proverbial "fun."

The main reason for doing so is a comment in the threads wherein someone noted that this is just math, and it's just a question of X > Y. Now, given that most of the debates about relative worth and statistics have already been extensively hashed out in another arena, I am going to be making many analogies to that fertile ground.

Warning: Large concentration of sports-like substance ahead!

A. One stat to rule them all, one stat to find them, one stat to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.


Imagine you were a fan of baseball. I know, it's hard. But just .... imagine. Now someone says, "Look, I have a statistic that accurately measures how good a baseball player is! The better a baseball player is at this single statistic, the better a baseball player is, period. Because the main goal in baseball is to hit the ball, I give unto you .... BATTING AVERAGE!"

Of course, there are some issues with batting average. A big one is that there are other aspects of the game ... let's call them "pillars," that batting average can't measure. If you wanted to say that baseball had "three pillars" of batting, pitching, and defense, then batting average only measure one of those three pillars. Which is a problem!

But there's another problem. Batting average doesn't measure batting very well. It's better than just not knowing any numbers at all! But it doesn't take into account important factors like .... getting on base without hitting the ball ("walks"), or whether the batter is really good at "going nova" (hitting doubles, triples, and home runs). All batting average does is measure the most basic, baseline statistic possible. It provides more information no information, but its limitations (if they are not recognized as such) could end up with someone making the following serious errors:
1. In 2019, Jacob deGrom (.200 BA) < Harold Ramirez (.276 BA) (Pillar error; deGram was a Cy Young winner as a pitcher, and Ramirez was a light-hitting outfielder on the worst team in the league)
2. Hank Aaron (career .305) < Bill Lamar (career .310) (factor error; Aaron is a hall-of-famer and second all time in home runs, Lamar was a journeyman who played for nine seasons with 19 home runs for his career).

As I hope is evident, this should show the issue with over-reliance on a single statistic! Now, as anyone who follow baseball know, you can get better statistics. If you want to measure offensive production, you can include walks (OBP) and power (Slugging) and even combine them and normalize them into a really good statistic (OPS+). And you can try and capture defensive value, and pitching, and try to include that into a single, comparative statistic (there are variations of this, an how to calculate it, but a common one is "WARP" or Wins Above Replacement Player).

Unfortunately, this isn't being done in D&D. DPR is not WARP, and it's not OPS+. DPR is, at best, the batting average of D&D- a measure that doesn't even try to take into account the full gamut of offensive options. Of course, unlike batting average, DPR isn't an observed statistic, but it's conjured out of whole cloth from assumptions ... which will be addressed later, because before that we have another major problem.


B. The is no I in TEAM .... and no D P R either!

D&D is, fundamentally, a team game. Various editions have made required "roles" or "niches" within the party more or less explicit; famously, in ye olden grognardian days of 1e, you'd need to have at least one cleric for healing, and some fighters to defend any fragile magic users, and so on. 5e has really lowered the threshhold when it comes to having any particular character be "required," but it is still common (IME) for players to talk to each other to ensure that there is a decent diversity of classes within the party.

More importantly, there are numbers. While there might be an occasion for "solo play" (DM/player), most campaigns consist of a DM and 4-6 (or more) players. The reason why this is important is the reason why I am about to move away from baseball (which is probably a big relief to anyone reading this not from the US!).

Baseball has always been a particularly attractive sport to analyze with statistics because almost every interaction is a 1:1 battle; a pitcher, a hitter, and an outcome. It's heaven for stats geeks. Sure, there are advanced issues ("clutch hitting," defense, "framing pitches," "clubhouse chemistry" and so on), but the core stats are fairly simple.

Teams games .... they are more complicated. We can refer to this as the "Battier Issue." In basketball, there was a player, Shane Battier, who didn't have very good statistics when measured by "traditional basketball stats" (points scored, rebounds, assists). But whenever he played, the other players on the court played better. In other words, he was doing the things (defense, setting picks) that aren't captured in the statistics that make everyone else more successful.

An example of the exact opposite of Battier would be a player like Ricky Davis; Davis was a gunner, and had a good stretch of averaging just around 20 points a game. But he didn't make his teams better. He didn't set screens. He didn't play defense. And his points were scored on high volume. Traditional statistics that viewed him as a player in isolation without looking at his teammates, would completely miss out on the negative impact he had on the team.

Basketball, soccer, football (American). These are all sports that are harder to quantify because they are team games. Sure, you know the value of a QB in football by the number of TDs he throws (although that is only part of the picture), but how do you accurately quantify the value of the the offensive linemen that give that QB time to throw?

Anyone who follows these sports knows that, increasingly, people are paid vast amounts of money to try and put numbers to a lot of these things. To quantify (more than just the eye test) how good that 19 year old sweeper on some random club is, and how much of a transfer he is worth. But the point is- it's hard. Even the best striker can't score if his team can't get him the ball. Even the best goalkeeper can't block shots if his defense is allowing the other team time to set up clean in the box.

And that gets to the heard of the matter for DPR; because D&D involves a team (a party), and because DPR artificially inflates the measure of the single individual contribution, it necessarily discounts the value of benefits that accrue to the party. That's not to say that these benefits can't be teased out mathematically with difficulty- just that DPR doesn't do that.


C. Philly, man, they even boo Santa Claus.

The last point is a little more abstract, but is worth reiterating, because while the effects are more nuanced in sports, they are dramatic in D&D. In many sports, you will play an entire season, six months, just so you have "home field advantage," in the playoffs- the opportunity to play at home. This can be as subtle as having an extra game at home in a seven game series. But this matter. Everything from sleeping in your own bed (and not a hotel) to knowing the field, to the pressure that the home crowd puts on the referees, to more esoteric things (like the altitude of different places) can make a difference. Anyway, it's a truism that where you play matters (to briefly go into stats, you will often see home/away or park-adjusted statistics for this).

It's the same with D&D. There is no such thing as a "baseline" D&D campaign. Maybe AL comes closest, but that is such a tiny minority of games. Is your campaign battlemap or ToTM? Is it combat-heavy or all about the discovery? Does it include feat and multiclassing? Does it take place mostly in dungeons, in cities, on the water, or even under the water? Are you using any variant rules? The variability of campaigns is so great that is can often swamp out other factors; to use one easy example, think of languages. If your campaign ignores or "Star Treks" the issue of different languages (everyone just kind of understands each other, because reasons) and is combat-heavy, then any spells or abilities involving languages are pretty much useless. On the other hand, if your campaign has detailed rules about languages, with multiple countries with different languages and no real "common" and a massive social and exploration component, then those language spells and abilities will be incredibly valuable.

Same abilities, different value, entirely campaign dependent.

And that's a fundamental issue with DPR. DPR inherently assumes that the campaign is combat-heavy (such that DPR is important), and that the campaign features the type of varied, yet generic, combat that would make DPR the correct measure of combat effectiveness. Neither assumption is necessarily incorrect, but both assumptions will quickly be tested by campaigns that don't match those assumptions.


D. Conclusion.

None of this is to say that DPR is completely useless. To use an analogy, if someone says, "Hey, a rapier does d8 damage, and a scimitar does d6 damage" then noting that d8 > d6 (in isolation, ignoring weapon property of light) is useful information!

And that's what DPR, done well, can be. Useful information. But like so many statistics, over-use, or over-reliance on it without understanding the limits and the issues of it leads to hubris and saying that things "suck" without proper foundation. Now, before it is said that I would level this accusation without providing helpful analysis, what would I do to improve the current analysis?

That's both simple and complicated. The primary problem is that D&D, unlike most sports, doesn't have a large catalog of observed games for statistics. Now that we have twitch, and critical role, and other publicly broadcast games, maybe someone could start compiling that.... but that's neither here nor there. But there is always going to be a difference between "white room" stats and statistics in play.

In order to avoid that, the best way to conjure up statistics is to run simulations (Monte Carlo simulations & regression analysis) over and over again with different party compositions and different combats and see the results. There would necessarily be limits to this based upon even more factors (what monsters, how are the PCs making decisions, accounting for spellcasting, accounting for terrain etc.) but it would provide you with more useful information. IMO.

On the other hand, DPR, like batting average, can continue to be a useful component or tool- but primarily so long as its limitations are acknowledged, and its used to compare two things that are already alike. In other words, if you are choosing between two options for your character in order to maximize damage, then DPR is a great tool! It's value diminished significantly as you start comparing unlike things.

Anyway, thought I'd throw all of this out there. I am quite positive it is uncontroversial.

Lot's here. Much I agree with. Some I don't.

IMO. DPR using realistic combat assumptions provides one of the best metrics we have for assessing combat performance. There's other things to take into account like defense, mobility, control, range, etc (some of which can be factored into the DPR statistic).

Monte Carlo sims are worse than mathing it out as no one ever agrees on the starting assumptions and tactics to use during them.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
Lot's here. Much I agree with. Some I don't.

IMO. DPR using realistic combat assumptions provides one of the best metrics we have for assessing combat performance. There's other things to take into account like defense, mobility, control, range, etc (some of which can be factored into the DPR statistic).

Monte Carlo sims are worse than mathing it out as no one ever agrees on the starting assumptions and tactics to use during them.
But I think even the DPR assumptions are off. For instance, a melee fighter may have better DPR than a ranged fighter, but the melee fighter loses DPR whenever they aren't in range of their opponent. Meanwhile the ranged fighter's DPR is consistent for most of the range.

DPR doesn't factor the most important factors of how a fight will pan out. A paladin that's in the thick of it may have amazing DPR and falls behind the bard because they died in round 2 for the whole 6 round combat while the bard got an extra 4 rounds tinkering with their animate objects from a safe distance.

Meanwhile, concentration is expected to always be on, but a cleric whose Spirit Guardian's drop early now has much lower DPR since they have to spend time re-applying it. If they even have the spellslots left.
 

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