D&D General Why DPR Sucks: Discussing Whiteroom Theorycrafting

[FrogReaver]

Asis, that is why I mentioned increased fidelity.

You modelled a 0 AC foe (all attacks hit) eith -infinity saves. You can improve that model.

Gloom stalker 3 model. Hand crossbow, XBE, 16 dex. Despite ease, not invisible. HM round 1.
4d6+6 (20) at +8 to hit.

On an 18 AC foe, this is .6*4.5+.55*20+.05*14 DPR, or 14.4, 11.7 later rounds.

Snake BM is +8 for 1d6+6 then save for 3d6+2 at DC 11 (for half). We'll model 18 AC and +1 con save.

.55*(9.5+.45*(12.5)+.55*.5*(12.5))+.05*3.5=11.25

Doesn't need to use hunter's mark, but lower DPR than Gloomstalker XBE. Also gloomstalker isn't in darkness, whichher damage out of the water.

How about level 5, gloom in darkness with SS against 18 AC?

Snake BM is +9 to hit for 1d6+7(10.5) save for 3d6+3(13.5), plus a +10 to hit 1d10+1d6+4(13) HM enhanced crossbow shot. 19ish DPR.

Gloom is +4 to hit for 6d6+39(60) with advantage, or +9 to hit at 6d6+9(30) without. On AC 18 hits 5/9th of the time and crits 1/10 for 35ish DPR in darkness, 20ish in light.

Level up to 11. Snake is +10 to hit at 2d6+16(23) save for 6d6+8(29) plus +11 to hit at 1d10+1d6+5 (14). 35ish DPR.

Gloom is +6 at 6d6+45 (66) reroll 1 miss, advantage. Chance of a miss is like 70%-80% (3 attacks, each with 1/3 chance of missing, has a 70% chance of a miss). So in darkness does (22*(.7)+7*.1)3.7+4.5(.8) or about 63 DPR. Sustained, as after first round can bonus action crossbow. Switching targets does cost extra DPR.

In light, +11 to hit for 3.7*2d6+5 (44ish). Hits on a 7 for 70% accuracy. (.7*(12)+.05*(7))*3.7 is 32ish DPR. A tad less than the Snake BM.

So in light, against a low Con decent AC foe, our Snake BM has similar DPR as our gloomstalker.

DPR isn't everything, so we start looking around. Snake damage is magical, but also poison. If magic weapons are rare this could help BM.

L 11 Snake BM has a 44 HP sponge with low AC that has nearly no HD and takes more than 8 hours to replace (need to find a giant poisonoua snake, then befriend it, then spend 8 hours).

Gloomstalker has invis-in-darkness features.

Gloomstalker scales better with published treasure. Give gloom magic weapon and bolts...

BM gains less from HM, and has bonus action mostly free.

BM has more feats free; above build uses none. GS uses 2.

the simple reason beast master sucks is they their beast is too easy to kill.

 

[Maxperson]

the simple reason beast master sucks is they their beast is too easy to kill.

You could just make the mastery drive the beast on after death. The beast fights until it hasn't attacked or been attacked for 3 rounds, then it dies. Then you bond another one.

 

[Asisreo]

Asis, that is why I mentioned increased fidelity.

You modelled a 0 AC foe (all attacks hit) eith -infinity saves. You can improve that model.

hehe, I know what I did. Honestly, the to-hits would've been quite similar up until the advantage comes into play.

Oh, but the invisibility depends on darkness. But gloomstalker doesn't get the Darkness spell, so they basically have to hope the DM's encounters are in darkness (not dim light) and the enemies have darkvision rather than blindsight, tremorsense, or truesight.

And I went over the cases of failed saves, successful saves and in-betweens.

Gloom stalker 3 model. Hand crossbow, XBE, 16 dex. Despite ease, not invisible. HM round 1.
4d6+6 (20) at +8 to hit.

On an 18 AC foe, this is .6*4.5+.55*20+.05*14 DPR, or 14.4, 11.7 later rounds.

Snake BM is +8 for 1d6+6 then save for 3d6+2 at DC 11 (for half). We'll model 18 AC and +1 con save.

.55*(9.5+.45*(12.5)+.55*.5*(12.5))+.05*3.5=11.25

Oh, we're doing feats now, huh? I'll keep that in-mind later.

Also, the DPR of the beastmaster's snake is 12.5 DPR. When you introduce half-damage saves, it becomes a bit more complicated.

How about level 5, gloom in darkness with SS against 18 AC?

Snake BM is +9 to hit for 1d6+7(10.5) save for 3d6+3(13.5), plus a +10 to hit 1d10+1d6+4(13) HM enhanced crossbow shot. 19ish DPR.

Gloom is +4 to hit for 6d6+39(60) with advantage, or +9 to hit at 6d6+9(30) without. On AC 18 hits 5/9th of the time and crits 1/10 for 35ish DPR in darkness, 20ish in light.

Oh, this gloomstalker's loaded up on feats now, huh?

Let's say the beastmaster v.human took dual wielder as his feat at level 1, then used their ASI to bring the dex from 16 to 18.

The beastmaster's snake does 13.05 DPR and with dual wielder against 18 AC enemy does 12.15 after the first turn setting up hunter's mark, meaning they do 25.2 DPR. Not better than the gloomstalker.

Level up to 11. Snake is +10 to hit at 2d6+16(23) save for 6d6+8(29) plus +11 to hit at 1d10+1d6+5 (14). 35ish DPR.

The snake would be doing 29.3 damage alone. The ranger would be doing 16.75 for a total of 46.03 damage consistently. Much more than the gloomstalker in light.

DPR isn't everything, so we start looking around. Snake damage is magical, but also poison. If magic weapons are rare this could help BM.

L 11 Snake BM has a 44 HP sponge with low AC that has nearly no HD and takes more than 8 hours to replace (need to find a giant poisonoua snake, then befriend it, then spend 8 hours).

The snake can recover about 1/4th of their health during a short rest, and the ranger might just have cure wounds. Put barding on the level 11 snake and get an AC of 22, easily.

Gloomstalker has invis-in-darkness features.

Gloomstalker scales better with published treasure. Give gloom magic weapon and bolts...

Beastmaster can cover the grounds for skill-monkey and scout. The beast can also be a part of watch, but I know that these are quite as flashy. It's also 44hp worth of extra hitpoints that doesn't go into the other characters that can't come back in 8 hours.

BM gains less from HM, and has bonus action mostly free.

BM has more feats free; above build uses none. GS uses 2.

That's because you never used them. They'd be much stronger if you did.

 

[Li Shenron]

But if everyone is watching D&D, who will be playing?

I think you hit the nail on the head. You can use the present tense, if everyone is watching (and calculating) when are they really playing the game?

 

[NotAYakk]

I included half damage in the math already.

Here:

.55*(9.5+.45*(12.5)+.55*.5*(12.5))+.05*3.5=11.25

see that .55*.5*12.5? That is half-damage-on-save.
On a hit (55%), you deal 9.5 plus 45% chance of failure for 12.5 and 55% chance of save for 12.5/2.

Now it is actually a bit high, as you round down halving.

...

I did neglect the xbe+ss option for the bm. Or PAM+GWM.

At 11 it becomes initial snake*2+2d6+5 or 1d10+1d6+5, then snake*2+4d6+10 or +1d10+1d4+2d6+10. And +10/20 if you can get advantage and SS/GWM off, plus reaction attack with PAM. PAM/GWM loses 2 to hit and gains some rerolls (probably not worth it).

Also, I should run numbers on sacing your own attack for a help or shove.

The snake can recover about 1/4th of their health during a short rest, and the ranger might just have cure wounds. Put barding on the level 11 snake and get an AC of 22, easily.

That presumes you can apply the +prof to AC after you apply barding (ie, that the +prof to AC can be applied despite the the "set AC to 18" of plate armor, which is plausible), and your snake is barding-trained (which is less plausible). The second makes the replacement cost for a giant poisonous snake that is trained to wear heavy barding pretty damn high(!)

 

[Asisreo]

I included half damage in the math already.

Here:

see that .55*.5*12.5? That is half-damage-on-save.
On a hit (55%), you deal 9.5 plus 45% chance of failure for 12.5 and 55% chance of save for 12.5/2.

Your equation is wrong on display. The number comes out as 10.38.


Now it is actually a bit high, as you round down halving.

...

I did neglect the xbe+ss option for the bm. Or PAM+GWM.

At 11 it becomes initial snake*2+2d6+5 or 1d10+1d6+5, then snake*2+4d6+10 or +1d10+1d4+2d6+10. And +10/20 if you can get advantage and SS/GWM off, plus reaction attack with PAM. PAM/GWM loses 2 to hit and gains some rerolls (probably not worth it).

Also, I should run numbers on sacing your own attack for a help or shove.

That presumes you can apply the +prof to AC after you apply barding (ie, that the +prof to AC can be applied despite the the "set AC to 18" of plate armor, which is plausible), and your snake is barding-trained (which is less plausible). The second makes the replacement cost for a giant poisonous snake that is trained to wear heavy barding pretty damn high(!)

+prof does stack with barding and an animal doesn't need specific training to wear barding.

 

[NotAYakk]

+prof does stack with barding and an animal doesn't need specific training to wear barding.

Barding is Armor, and the general rule on Armor is that you need proficiency in armor or suffer penalties, such as disadvantage on all attacks.

It doesn't need the proficiency, but it sort of tanks their DPR if it doesn't have that proficiency. Arguing that your giant constrictor snake tamed by a BM is/isn't proficient in heavy armor is between you and your DM.

I mean, if it was a polar bear, that is obvious.

 

[Asisreo]

Barding is Armor, and the general rule on Armor is that you need proficiency in armor or suffer penalties, such as disadvantage on all attacks.

It doesn't need the proficiency, but it sort of tanks their DPR if it doesn't have that proficiency. Arguing that your giant constrictor snake tamed by a BM is/isn't proficient in heavy armor is between you and your DM.

I mean, if it was a polar bear, that is obvious.

Never disagreed. But your giant constrictor snake you bonded with 2 seconds ago doesn't need special training to have proficiency with barding. It's up to the DM.

 

[Maxperson]

Barding is Armor, and the general rule on Armor is that you need proficiency in armor or suffer penalties, such as disadvantage on all attacks.

That's only for PCs. Barding is not light, medium or heavy armor. It's barding. Monsters and NPCs don't use PC rules unless the DM goes out of way to make that monster/NPC with PC rules. Also, Warhorses if you look at them don't have barding proficiency and the barding section in the PHB makes no mention of it. The snake would be just fine in barding, if a bit funny looking and quite possibly with a movement penalty, given that it's a snake.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Ham and Cheese.