D&D 5E How would you wish WOTC to do Dark Sun

[Eltab]

"They say there were once gods other than elementals"
I agree, elementals - even Kossuth or the 4 Elemental Evil overlords - are not gods. But we see the end of a process. Much earlier (using the 4e book lore here) there were gods, which subsequently disappeared ... for some reason, unknown and lost to time. The worship previously oriented towards those gods was re-directed towards other beings of great power - elementals - which have subsequently been mis-identified as "gods" in the common understanding.

 

[TarionzCousin]

All worlds have one of those, you just have to (hopefully not) find it.

Unless I'm playing a cannibal halfling....

 

[Haldrik]

"They say there were once gods other than elementals"
I agree, elementals - even Kossuth or the 4 Elemental Evil overlords - are not gods. But we see the end of a process. Much earlier (using the 4e book lore here) there were gods, which subsequently disappeared ... for some reason, unknown and lost to time. The worship previously oriented towards those gods was re-directed towards other beings of great power - elementals - which have subsequently been mis-identified as "gods" in the common understanding.

From what I can tell so far. The opinion that there used to be "gods" in Dark Sun seems to come from an unreliable narrator. And is probably untrue. (But if a particular table of gamers wants it to be true, they can choose to make it true, choosing a variant cosmological setting as an option.)

Animists lack hierarchy. (Aside from clan elders, who are still family.) Lack bureaucracy. Thus lack gods.

The assumption of "worship" is ethnocentric, mainly deriving from Hellenism. Albeit it can develop in certain cultures independently after establishing hierarchy and bureaucracy.

I suspect the familiarity with reallife Christianity that "worships Jesus" creates the false impression that all religions "worship". But this too is ethnocentric. Also it is shaped by Greek-speaking Hellenism. Even then there is an additional development of Northern European feudalism, where "worship" means to declare that someone is "worthy" to be the hierarchical superior. At some point (since the 1300s?) the related words came to increasingly specify the object of worship as gods or God. To be more inclusive of Non-Christian religions, it is necessary to be able to drop the word worship, and only use it when it is accurate and meaningful. The word "worship" is highly ethnocentric.

In Judaism, the word "worship" doesnt really exist. Albeit in Hebrew, we do have the concept of "serving" God (mainly in the sense of administrating the Temple), and perhaps more relevantly of "bowing down" to God as a hierarchical superior. Even then, literally bowing down forhead to ground tends to happen only once a year. For Judaism the sacred tradition is more about listening to God, thinking about what God says, and doing what God asks.

In any case, many reallife religious traditions have zero to do with "worship". Many reallife sacred customs are more like having a birthday party. It is sacred, and social expectations can be quite intense, and there can be very specific customs (seasonally honor a loved one, gather friends, birthday cake, blow out candles, sing Happy Birthday, give gifts, etcetera). But there is zero "worship" happening in these kinds of religious traditions.

 

[Haldrik]

Back to the book, Air Earth, Fire and Water.



So, the Holy Symbols for the Clerics according to this book are:

• Air: literally ones breath, anytime anywhere
• Water: a small vial of water (which can be conjured by a Create Water spell)

• Earth: standing on (!) earth
• Fire: a flame-shaped stone, shaped by fire while molten, often obsidian (volcanic glass)

Air seems easy. For Earth, the requirement to literally have feet touching the ground, seems potentially problematic. The fire-stone seems ... awkward ... albeit appropriate for a Magma Earth-Fire blend. The vial of water seems ok.



I would rather see the Elemental Clerics manifest their spell as a Psionic spell, meaning they can cast it innately without components, including without a Holy Symbol.

On the other hand, in 3e, to manifest a psionic power caused a "display", like glowing an aura of light. Here, I would love to see something like this for the Elemental Cleric.

Whenever a Cleric manifests a spell, they display their Element. An Air Cleric has a light breeze circulate around their body while spellcasting. A Water Cleric sheds a delicate aura of wafting airborne mist. An Earth Cleric manifests a stone somewhere around their feet, or sheds an aura of airborne dust particles. A Fire Cleric has their head or hand burst into flame whenever casting a spell. These displays are psionic, but also work similar to the Holy Symbols in the book, to connect their magic to the element. Finally, these thematic displays are for flavor, without mechanical benefit. Stealth casting is more difficult. If people want a display to grant some minor benefit for each kind Element, I am ok with that too.

 

[Haldrik]

In the book, Air Earth, Fire and Water,

yikes,

"Shamans. More common among the primitive tribes is the shaman kit."

That animists are "primitive", is one of the appalling ethnocentric (even racist) offenses that WotC is currently working hard to weed out.

Thank you, WotC.



Uggg. rolleyes

"A shaman makes the same pact as other clerics, but often mistakes the elemental beings granting his power for vicious and angry gods. Many earth shamans are known to worship the God of the Volcano, for instance. That deity does not exist. But entire cultures have arisen based on such false beliefs."

Yeah. I really want WotC to end such ethnocentrism ASAP when describing religions. Especially when using reallife religious terms like "shaman".

Drop the "gods" and the "worship" already! It is ignorant to use these words in inappropriate contexts. Nevermind, the racist overtones.

When it comes to the Four Elements, remove any and all personifications.

 

[Zardnaar]

In the book, Air Earth, Fire and Water,

yikes,

"Shamans. More common among the primitive tribes is the shaman kit."

That animists or nontheists generally are "primitive", is one of the appalling ethnocentric (even racist) offenses that WotC is currently working hard to weed out.

Thank you, WotC.



Uggg. rolleyes

"A shaman makes the same pact as other clerics, but often mistakes the elemental beings granting his power for vicious and angry gods. Many earth shamans are known to worship the God of the Volcano, for instance. That deity does not exist. But entire cultures have arisen based on such false beliefs."

Yeah. I really want WotC to end such ethnocentrism ASAP when describing religions. Especially when using reallife religious terms like "shaman".

Heh, when it comes to the elements of nature, a shaman is more like to understand what is really going on, than a city dweller is. What do city dwellers know about nature?!

Drop the "gods" and the "worship" already! It is ignorant to use these words in inappropriate contexts. Nevermind, the racist overtones.

When it comes to the Four Elements, remove any and all personifications.

No one cares, the book came out in 1992

Cherry picking some bits how clerics get spells from the elements us interesting and could be recycled.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Yeah. I really want WotC to end such ethnocentrism ASAP when describing religions. Especially when using reallife religious terms like "shaman".

And like Templar, right?

 

[humble minion]

"They say there were once gods other than elementals"

Dark Sun always had ... consistency issues when it came to gods in the canon.

On one hand, you have in-world statements like the above, on the other hand, you have Badna, the 'god' that Abalach-Re claimed to get her powers from and which was widely worshipped in Raam, and on the OTHER other hand you canonically have temples of lost ancient gods in UnderTyr which retain some power (at least in the novels), and then on the other other other hand (four hands are ok in Dark Sun - thri-kreen, right?) you have Dregoth who's done a whole lot of planewalking in the Great Wheel, seen how gods work out there, and came back to Athas with ambitions of advancing to true deityhood himself.

It's a bit of a mess really, and I think it's more of a result of TSRs slipshod development practices than any actual considered design or theological choices. It's fairly well documented that in the 90s TSR would just farm projects out to different writers without providing them with a setting bible or even access to all of the currently in-print material, and would just publish whatever the hell came back with minimal concern for consistency. Lynn Abbey's written a bit about it from when she was writing Rise And Fall of a Dragon King - it's pretty head-shaking, from a project management point of view.

Anyway, long story short - if a hypothetical 5e DS tries to stick to every bit of 2e canon about how gods, spirits, elementals, etc work in Dark Sun, they're doomed to fail because all of the existing canon contradicts itself. Better to take all the existing stuff as inspiration, come up with a synthesis that works as a framework to tell enjoyable stories in (theological consistency or thematics should come second to making a functional gameworld), and throw out the old stuff that doesn't fit (or write it off as in-world material from unreliable narrators)

 

[Haldrik]

No one cares, the book came out in 1992

Cherry picking some bits how clerics get spells from the elements us interesting and could be recycled.

I think I am more interested in scanning the book for inspiration, and updating any gems for 5e sensibilities.

Some of the extra Cleric spells might inspire interesting cantrips, spells, domain lists, and channel divinity.

The religions need thoughful updating.

I feel Clerics should gain their spells from their own personal insight into the nature of the Element. (Compare Avatar The Last Airbender.) And Clerics should do so as part of a sacred community who cares about harmonizing with the Element.

Elementals are creatures of the Elemental Plane. Fine as allies. Actually offensive as "gods". No spell comes from them.

I like the idea of focusing on the Boxed Set, translating it into 5e classes and mechanics, and adding anything else as options.

 

[Haldrik]

The book Air Earth Fire and Water specifies.

Defiling magic DESTROYS the Element of Water.

Elsewhere I was under the impression that defilers destroy plants. But here they precisely destroy Water. Plants wilt in a rainless drought.

This makes more sense to me. Otherwise where would the Water go? But it actually vanishes.

(Perhaps defilers revert Water into pure primordial Ether, which is the Arcane power source?)

Because of the destruction of Water, Fire is now totally out of control. Harmony dies and life perishes everywhere.

So the solution might be to somehow manifest more Water.