Why don’t players surrender... would we want them too?

[Jd Smith1]

If your heroes care more about their STUFF then their LIVES they aren’t heroes. A living hero with no clothes can do more than a dead one with a Vorpal Sword.

My players don't run heroes. I don't think I've ever seen that concept used at any table I've run since 1979. My players loot the dead, kill from ambush, and are always on the lookout for easy money.

How can the heroes lead a slave revolt if they don’t get captured?
Prison break

Have people not run these scenarios?

Well, the best way to organize a slave revolt or prison break is from the outside.

But no, I've never bothered with either scenario.

 

[Derren]

In the Traveller campaign I mentioned just upthread, the PC who was able to disarm the guard and then capture the battle dress also made friends with one of the NPCs. This unfolded over a handful of scenes - first, she developed a liking for him during her interrogation of him; second, he encountered her while looking for the battle dress and interacted with her quite politely; third, he let her come along with the PCs when they fled the enemy base rather than being left behind with the other defeated NPCs.

Eighteen months later I don't remember all the mechanical details, but at the core of it will have been the reaction roll system.

This is an example of what I mean when I talk about mechanics that let players take actions even if their PCs are prisoners. To go back to one of the points in @TheSword's OP, the fiction of the PCs have surrendered and are prisoners doesn't have to mean the gameplay of the players have no agency. If, in some systems, it does have that consequence that is just revealing a limit of those systems.

There is a difference between players having agency even as prisoners and railroading them into a successful escape (+ recovering their gear) or overthrowing the captors.
Sadly player expect that to happen which in turn influences their actions.
They are in my experience not satisfied with just escaping, which they assume is basically automatic, they also expect to get everything back and "win". Which means they do not even try to just escape which also makes them take huge, sometimes impossible, risks.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I mean... NO ONES group has pulled the Wookie prisoner trick to save the princess from the clutches of the evil slavers??

In my campaign evil does not mean stupid.

There's protocols for moving prisoners. Paperwork. Strangers check their weapons before entering secure facilities and have their ID examined.

 

[TheSword]

There is a difference between players having agency even as prisoners and railroading them into a successful escape (+ recovering their gear) or overthrowing the captors.
Sadly player expect that to happen which in turn influences their actions.
They are in my experience not satisfied with just escaping, which they assume is a basically automatic, they also expect to get everything back and "win". Which means they do not even try to just escape which also makes them take huge, sometimes impossible, risks.

I think the premise of the thread is that this ISN’T expected by most players, they don’t surrender enough because of some of the problems discussed.

Im not sure how escaping from a cell and continuing the adventure is any more automatic than exploring the temple and finding the BBEG.

I mean you need to put doors, secret passages, keys, guards and treasure in there. An escape is just a version of a dungeon except you start disadvantaged and on the inside rather than the outside.

What is wrong with recovery and then exceeding? Is that what you would expect to happen in an adventure?

 

[Ringtail]

Some others have touched on this but I think it depends on how much you trust your DM.

If you know your DM has unfair tendencies or handles some RP in ways you don't like, you will probably think being captured by that guy's NPCs would be bad. (You should probably also work some stuff out of course.)

But a DM who always treats you as a player with respect, is fair and gives everyone spotlight time, that's a situation where I would be comfortable surrendering.

Our party surrendered once in a game where we were attack at a tavern and framed for it's burning down. Some of us were able to get let off because we were witnessed helping civilians escape, but others (the drow) were arrested. We had a lot of RP finding lawyers, bribing guards and proving our innocence. It is however possible that the reason we surrendered instead of trying to flee was that we had something to prove: our innocence. Running would just cement the idea we were criminals.

 

[pemerton]

There is a difference between players having agency even as prisoners and railroading them into a successful escape (+ recovering their gear) or overthrowing the captors.
Sadly player expect that to happen which in turn influences their actions.

You must be talking about your players. You're not talking about mine.

As far as railroading is concerned, you are the one who seems to be advocating it - ie advocating railroading capture PCs into a TPK.

The limit is that it creates the expectation that imprisonment is just a small detour for the ongoing adventure and that after a few sessions they are back on track

All this only makes sense if you assume the game is a railroad - with "detours" and "tracks" and "ongoing adventures".

If the PCs surrender, that is "the adventure". If they then try to escape, well that is now the adventure. My view is it can make for fun and interesting play, which is basically what I am looking for in RPGing.

Why were the PCs beaten in a traveller setting? Why was the guard who "interrogated" them armed with an SMG, the room unlocked and unguarded, the battle dress not stored securely in the armory? All this makes no sense and is just there to railroad the PCs to escape.

I linked to the session report. Here it is again.

But in summary: The PCs were not interrogated by a guard; they were interrogated by an interrogator. When not being interrogated they were in a compound with a guard. He was armed with a SMG because that is a standard weapon in Classic Traveller. As is explained in that post, the escape attempt was the result of the player of one of the captured PCs, and the last to remain conscious, asking himself should i go kinetic? and deciding to do so; there was no railroading.

Why was the battle dress not store securely in the armoury? What armoury? Who said anything about an armoury? It had been taken off so its wearer could have a shower. It had not been locked away. That would not be the first time someone didn't lock away a precious thing. As the play report describes, when the PC went to get the battle dress I called for a 2D check: 10+ and it all goes perfectly, 7+ and it's not too bad for the PC. The roll was in the middle range; had it been below 7 then I don't know what I would have narrated, but maybe the battle dress being locked away, or malfunctioning, or just taking a really long time to put on, would have been possibilities.

To be honest, you seem to have a really limited range of ideas about how a RPG can be GMed and played. Predetermined outcomes seem to be a big part of your conception. That's not my own approach - and, of relevance to this thread, my approach seems to successfully address the issues raised in the OP.

 

[Derren]

Some others have touched on this but I think it depends on how much you trust your DM.

If you know your DM has unfair tendencies or handles some RP in ways you don't like, you will probably think being captured by that guy's NPCs would be bad. (You should probably also work some stuff out of course.)

But a DM who always treats you as a player with respect, is fair and gives everyone spotlight time, that's a situation where I would be comfortable surrendering.

Our party surrendered once in a game where we were attack at a tavern and framed for it's burning down. Some of us were able to get let off because we were witnessed helping civilians escape, but others (the drow) were arrested. We had a lot of RP finding lawyers, bribing guards and proving our innocence. It is however possible that the reason we surrendered instead of trying to flee was that we had something to prove: our innocence. Running would just cement the idea we were criminals.

To answer the question from @TheSword, in my opinion/experience a DM who does not give the PCs a easy/automatic way to escape, get all their gear back and defeat the enemy if its not THE BBEG is seen as unfair by most players, simply because they expect that to happen.

To be honest, you seem to have a really limited range of ideas about how a RPG can be GMed and played. Predetermined outcomes seem to be a big part of your conception. That's not my own approach - and, of relevance to this thread, my approach seems to successfully address the issues raised in the OP.

No, I just have a much higher standard than you when it comes to plausability and versimilitude of the setting and don't give the players everything on a silver platter to railroad them to victory.

 

[TheSword]

To answer the question from @TheSword, in my opinion/experience a DM who does not give the PCs a easy/automatic way to escape, get all their gear back and defeat the enemy if its not THE BBEG is seen as unfair by most players, simply because they expect that to happen.

What is easy though? If by easy you mean a level appropriate set of challenges, with a few ahead of level to make things interesting, completable in a session of play or two... then yes I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be easy.

I don’t think we need to make players spend the next ten sessions recovering equipment. That seems like it’s not much fun.

 

[Derren]

What is easy though? If by easy you mean a level appropriate set of challenges, with a few ahead of level to make things interesting, completable in a session of play or two... then yes I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be easy.

I don’t think we need to make players spend the next ten sessions recovering equipment. That seems like it’s not much fun.

Why should they recover their equipment?
That should not be the automatic goal and forgone conclusion of what happens. Depending on who captured them this should be the start of a new adventure (I do not mean TPK, start again but same characters, new location and new goals).

But currently, as you can see by for example pemerton's posts, the expectations are either tpk or easy escape with full recovery.

 

[TheSword]

Why should they recover their equipment?
That should not be the automatic goal and forgone conclusion of what happens. Depending on who captured them this should be the start of a new adventure (I do not mean TPK, start again but same characters, new location and new goals).

But currently, as you can see by for example pemerton's posts, the expectations are either tpk or easy escape with full recovery.

I feel that there is a risk we’re talking past each other at this point. Can I ask why would you expect the equipment to be somewhere out of reach, unless a large amount of time goes by? Why is that more plausible than being shared amongst those that captured them?