Level Up (A5E) Where to put ability bonuses during character creation

[Micah Sweet]

Yes. Hence my objection.

Others have found wait to express similar thoughts without sounding "too real". I have every confidence you can too.

Well, like I said, it was too flippant and I apologize. I'm happy to move ASIs off ancestry, even if it leaving it as it is isn't a problem for me. It really does open up some good character possibilities by splitting culture off.

 

[glass]

I know there was a great debate about this months ago, that I didn't participate in or read. But. Why is okay for Elves to have better vision than other races but saying they have better Dexterity is bad? Why is it specifically differentiating by ASI that is bad? Or have I misunderstood and giving characters of elven ancestry Darkvision 60 feet is also considered bad?

If there other ways to get bonuses to Dex, then there is no problem (as long as you do not conflate fantasy species with races). It is the only way you can get Dex at that level, then it pigeonholes species to classes that match their bonuses and vice versa.

Not to be too real-world, but that the "race you come from isn't relevant to your abilities" is literally the basis of the American Civil Rights movement over the last seventy years. And in fiction, including fiction that does nothing to challenge this notion, we still see different characters of different races because yeah, the changes in story beats and back story can be interesting.

Which is why some of us are pushing hard to stop using the word "race" for fantasy species. It is not a panacea (orcs are pretty much unavoidably coded as people of colour at this point, so giving them an Int penalty would be a bad look even if you call orcs a species, for example), but it is an important step.

_
glass.

 

[CapnZapp]

Is there any reason to not go for the term "ancestry"?

I see nothing good coming out of splitting the terminology, and like it or not, Pathfinder 2 was first to coin a term here.

 

[Derren]

Is there any reason to not go for the term "ancestry"?

I see nothing good coming out of splitting the terminology, and like it or not, Pathfinder 2 was first to coin a term here.

Ancestry can also mean cultural ancestry or being descended from a certain family line.

Race or species are the two most fitting terms, the first one would also not "split the terminology" compared to many other fantasy rpgs.

 

[glass]

Is there any reason to not go for the term "ancestry"?

It is definietly an improvement over "race", but it is still a term that can reasonably refer to human ethnicities. Species is cleaner and more accurate IMNSHO.

_
glass.

 

[CapnZapp]

Ancestry can also mean cultural ancestry or being descended from a certain family line.

Race or species are the two most fitting terms, the first one would also not "split the terminology" compared to many other fantasy rpgs.

For good or worse, Pathfinder 2 has already established "ancestry" as the "race" replacement term in D&D-adjacent gaming. Other fantasy rpgs simply don't come into this.

I really feel it would be a mistake for Level Up to take upon itself to split the terminology here. (Of course, as a 5E-compatible product, rather than it's own thing, I feel LU should retain "race". But if that term is deemed sufficiently unacceptable, going with the already-established alternative should be strongly considered)

 

[glass]

For good or worse, Pathfinder 2 has already established "ancestry" as the "race" replacement term in D&D-adjacent gaming. Other fantasy rpgs simply don't come into this.

I really feel it would be a mistake for Level Up to take upon itself to split the terminology here.

Other RPGs use species already. Other RPGs use other terms that are not "race" or "ancestry". Any splitting happened decades ago.

_
glass.

 

[CapnZapp]

Other RPGs use species already.

in D&D-adjacent gaming. Other fantasy rpgs simply don't come into this.

Regards

Any splitting happen decades ago.

I would argue the split did not happen in the D&D world until 2019, when Pathfinder 2 switched from race to ancestry. There probably were earlier attempts, but nothing nearly as significant.

 

[ART!]

So it really shouldn't be alarming or surprising that, if you removed all mechanical benefits (and penalties) to "races", people would still choose different "races" if given the option. I mean, in one Cyberpunk game, I played a french woman. Had zero mechanical impact on the character! Imagine!

This. In my experience, most players choose a race because they just think that race is cool, interesting, fun, or sets up a cool, interesting, or fun combo with whatever class they have in mind, or with whatever story/background they're going for. I don't get the feeling that would change much even if race choices came with no features or bonuses at all.

 

[Giauz]

Could ancestries have fixed traits like darkvision but also have ones in a table a player roles for? Also could those ASI's be cumulative, like +1 dex each level or every other level. I really like the idea of incorporating more dice roles into character customization and continuing to do stuff like we do in customizing Backgrounds. Anyways, I'm really tired and just spitballing.