D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Ralif Redhammer]

Cosigned! I was playing and running Dark Sun when it first came out, but I never liked the psionics system.

That would be awesome, give me that please! I find DS very interesting, but i despise psionics.

Greyhawk, beloved of grognards, is harder nut to crack. If the Folio is the only true Greyhawk product, that practically doesn't even need an update, as it's scant on rules. If you get as far as the boxed set, well, then why not include the Ashes era? Where does the one true Greyhawk end? There are certainly lots of people from 3e that have fond memories of Living Greyhawk that wouldn't care for everything from that being tossed out. Likewise the grognards that would rankle at anything after 1983. It's possibly a no-win situation they'd be entering into.

I say all this as someone that loves Greyhawk, mind you. I'd pick up a 5e Greyhawk book in a heartbeat. I think Wizards could create a product that respects all eras of Greyhawk while evoking the core feel of the world. But compared to more active products lines like Forgotten Realms, MtG, Wildemount, Eberron, even I have to admit that it's a dusty setting. Ghosts of Saltmarsh currently sits at #33 in D&D sales on Amazon, while its bookends, Avernus at #25, and Dungeon of the Mad Mage at #29, both outrank it. The older Curse of Strahd, Dragon Heist, Tales of the Yawning Portal, and Tomb of Annihilation all outrank it.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This isn't an argument for how to preserve Greyhawk, it's an argument how to grow the setting into greater prominence among younger gamers.

It's an interesting question- my preference would be to tack hard into things that make it different; I personally would go hard into the Swords & Sorcery ethos, and probably have rules for spell-less Paladins and Rangers (for example) and lean heavily on the martial/magic distinction. That could be interesting!

But in the end, all that matters is that someone who cares created something good. The rest follows.

Oh, and no Bards. Because Greyhawk might be many things, but it is Bard-free. Bards just don't get it, we have to keep Greyhawk copacetic, Realms lovers try to deny it, but we know that Bards are so pathetic.

 

[LordEntrails]

I think you missed the boat on answering your own question. Good post, but I think you failed to answer this primary question;

Why is it that every discussion about an "updated" Greyhawk is met with roughly the same level of vitriol as someone saying

Here you start to touch on what I think is underlying the answer to your question;

But here's the thing- early D&D, and AD&D especially, were defined by Greyhawk.

And you actually touch on one aspects;

They do not want a campaign setting that incorporates other settings ... because. They do not want everything told to them. They want the blank spaces to fill in.

But, you failed to address at all what I think is the major cause of these knee jerk reactions and the volume of resistance and disagreement.

People who love Greyhawk love their memories and attachments to a joyful time 30+ years ago. Sure, they may still be playing in that world, but it is one they traveled to decades ago, that were part of their youth, that in part shaped who they are.

Let's try and think of it like this;
If you have moved away from where you grew up, and have lived longer in a house or place other than you grew up in, you can go home again, but it is never the same home you left. You have changed, your memories are those of a youth, of a different you, they no longer reflect the reality of what was, only of what you remember.

I have a fond attachment to Greyhawk, and especially the Barrier Peaks and the Dale, but I have not gone back there, because it would not be the same as I remember. Even if I used the sources I used/played then, it would be different than I remember. It would be an emotional pain to realize those memories are in same way false.

For those who played in GH 3 decades ago, a new GH, will have an emotional disconnect from what is in our hearts and minds. Any thing new will not fit with what we believe and will challenge emotionally held beliefs about a time and place from our memories and fantasies. Their is such resistance to anything new because of the strong emotional attachment that is at the core of our being.

To have it re-written is to allow someone to violate our self-identity.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

For those who played in GH 3 decades ago, a new GH, will have an emotional disconnect from what is in our hearts and minds. Any thing new will not fit with what we believe and will challenge emotionally held beliefs about a time and place from our memories and fantasies. Their is such resistance to anything new because of the strong emotional attachment that is at the core of our being.

The issue with your framing is that there are many people that have continued to use the 1980 and 1983 sets as the source of their campaign settings .... for the decades since then.

Sure, the past might be a foreign country, but the most vociferous objectors are often the people with most familiarity- those that continue to run 1e or retroclones in Greyhawk.

I don't think your explanation fully covers it.

 

[TwoSix]

It's an interesting question- my preference would be to tack hard into things that make it different; I personally would go hard into the Swords & Sorcery ethos, and probably have rules for spell-less Paladins and Rangers (for example) and lean heavily on the martial/magic distinction. That could be interesting!

But in the end, all that matters is that someone who cares created something good. The rest follows.

Oh, and no Bards. Because Greyhawk might be many things, but it is Bard-free. Bards just don't get it, we have to keep Greyhawk copacetic, Realms lovers try to deny it, but we know that Bards are so pathetic.

This might be because I just finished up Abercrombie's First Law trilogy, but leaning into the gritty of the setting would be pretty interesting. Magic is truly rare, only the elves and powerful archmages can do any true magic. The Circle of Eight is half fairy tale, half bogeymen.

 

[Helldritch]

I'm sorry, but it seems the demographics are no longer with you on this one.

Let us review: (WotC - Comparing EN World's Demographics to the D&D Community's)

As you noted, Greyhawk material was already waning by 1985 - that was 35 years ago. That means that Greyhawk fans are generally in the 40+ age category... which seems to be around 11% of the current D&D player base.

Greyhawk fans may be vocal, but they no longer hold dominance of gaming's economic pie. It hardly makes sense to put such resources to a project targeting them, considering how critical you note they are.

Yes we are vocals. But I don't want WoTC to be the publisher. Let them open GH to the DM Guild and let's see what the fans will make.
Yes GH waned after 1985. It was hard for TSR to make GH be Forgotten (pun intended) as anything still related to GG would only bring sourness. Though I did like From the Ashes and the following products. The third edition ones were... well... were not made on par with what FR had been entitled too. It is almost as if the grudge against GG was still living in the corridors of WoTC. Without new products in the 4ed era, and none in 5ed, GH is doomed to die when the old grognards like me fade away.

I maybe one of the rare grognards that would like new material to be in Greyhawk. Dragonborns are cool so are Tieflings. I did incorporated them in my campaign and I can tell you that it was really easy to do. The "Canon" thing is both good and bad. A setting must evolve if you want it to live and grow. WIth the treatment GH suffered, it is a miracle that it is still talked about today. If "Canon" means that things are set in stones, then it is not good news for those that love the setting. We have to evolve and adapt. Not everything should be thrown down the drain, but finding a right balance will be a bit harder that some here might think.

Maybe a simple adaptation or just enhancing on the other part of the continent, the lands west of the deserts are worth exploring.

I would simply adapt NPCs from From the Ashes (even 3ed might be good...) and start expanding GH into the western lands.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

This might be because I just finished up Abercrombie's First Law trilogy, but leaning into the gritty of the setting would be pretty interesting. Magic is truly rare, only the elves and powerful archmages can do any true magic. The Circle of Eight is half fairy tale, half bogeymen.

TAKE MY MONEY!

 

[jasper]

To me Greyhawk always struck me as a base model which you permission to be your own cook. Don't like gnomes, then gnomes don't exist in your Greyhawk. And your players accepted what you cooked and placed before them.

 

[R_J_K75]

Everyone is protective of their thing, but what is it, exactly, that causes such as intense reaction?

You Gotta Fight...For Your RIght...to Greyhawk!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You Gotta Fight...For Your RIght...to Greyhawk!

Pictured L to R:
Gryrax, Yagrax, and Zagig Yragerne.