D&D 5E Bards have an identity problem!

[Cadence]

Sometimes the Bard concepts are only about the wording, not music.

This is the case for their lore skills, as sages, often employed as an advisor or teacher or expert, as a job.

Likewise, their capacity to foresee the future, is also why governments (including the Arthur) employed bards as advisors. In addition to blessing the wellbeing of the government.

I have trouble picturing a wizard working off of anything but intelligence. It feels like I could come up with a bard concept that used intelligence (remembering the stories and songs) or wisdom (sensing how the language of the world worked) instead of charisma.

 

[Krachek]

for me identity is done first by the background.
then you find a class that match it at best.
the latest bard I meet is a charlatan, snake charmer, coming from an Arabic culture.
he just don’t look like a classic bard, but from all classes my friend choose bard.
he is not singing or playing instrument except in rest.
classes are made open, and allow multiple play and interpretation.
if it was not, we would whim that classes force too much single identity.

 

[Haldrik]

I have trouble picturing a wizard working off of anything but intelligence. It feels like I could come up with a bard concept that used intelligence (remembering the stories and songs) or wisdom (sensing how the language of the world worked) instead of charisma.

When the Bard uses Intelligence, it seems more like History or Legal Studies. When the Wizard uses Intelligence, it seems more like Mathematics or Chemistry. But they share much in common, because both investigate magic power and magic traditions. So they are looking at the same thing, dreamlike symbols, despite different approaches to it.



In British history, when Christianity arrived, Christians embraced the Bard yet demonized the Druid. There must have been a difference between the two. It seems to me, the Bard was fundamentally non-theistic, while the Druid was fundamentally polytheistic.

I suspect the Christians interpreted the prescient abilities of the Bard as able to come from the Christian Holy Spirit, and likewise the blessings and curses that relate to fate, as from Divine providence. Perhaps even the overt magical abilities such as shapechanging were moreorless "secular" sotospeak, depending on ones own mind and skill.

By contrast, the Druid appears to be a sacred priestly caste dedicated to Celtic gods, as Romans mention, and that they also functioned as community leaders as teachers. It seems, structurally, the Druids functioned much the same way that Irish Catholic priests traditionally function in Ireland, more as sacred community spiritual leaders, separate from secular government leaders. Their focus was on the personal wellbeing of the members of their congregation, and had much say about the lives of each member, and moral authority. The Druids appear to be members of a specific family, a clan or tribe who inherited their priestly status. Romans mentioned Druids were pacifists, in the sense sacred tradition forbade them from fighting with weapons. But the Druids were known for magical abilities, including cloud magic for divination. I suspect the potion-making traditions (across Celtic Europe) with weird natural ingredients of the "eye of newt" variety, are probably a Druid thing. Celtic lore mentions such potions. An other feature of Celtic magic generally is the union of opposites, where both opposites are true simultaneously. For examples, new year is both the end and the beginning of the cyclical year, an earthmound is both above ground and below ground at the same time, wearing a sod of grass as a hat is both above and below ground, Merlin was born as an elder and aged backward becoming more youthful, and so on. These unions are vehicles of magical feats. In any case, cognates of the word "druid" later became a generic word for "magic" generally, so it is difficult to distinguish which kinds of "magic" the historical Druids practiced. But at least, it seems the Druids did do magic, and their magic was inherently polytheistic in approach.

 

[Haldrik]

If the abilities made more sense, I would love to divide up spell tropes by abilities.



Here is a fix of the abilities to make them more mutually exclusive and balanced to each other, that other players seem to be able to live with, that I can also tolerate despite preserving the traditional sextet.

PHYSICAL
• Strength − athletic agility, including run,jump,fall,land,climb,balance,tumble; hit hard
• Dexterity − manual precision, stealth; aim shot
• Constitution − strictly passive, physical toughness, health, no active usage

MENTAL
• Intelligence − perception, deception, five senses, lore, knowledge, intuition, deep structure, Wizard magic
• Charisma − persuasion, empathy, morale, leadership, artistic appeal, identity, self-expression, personal relationships, Cleric magic
• Wisdom − strictly passive, mental willpower, sanity, no active usage

Heh, accordingly, the mythic Bard can excel at both Charisma and Intelligence, but can still have low Wisdom and be insane. Even Merlin was seducible.



Thus spell tropes divide accordingly:

• Intelligence: Prescience-Teleportation, and probably Elemental magic including ether-force-telekinesis-fly
• Charisma: Telepathy-Enchantment, and probably Life magic including shapeshifting and healing

Like a Fighter needs to develop different physical abilities to be good at different things, any mage needs to develop different mental abilities to be good at different things.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Let's test that. Here are the abilities and those that have something to do with music.

1. Spellcasting: Music? Yes. X Optionally
2. Bardic Inspiration: Music? Yes. X Optionally
3. Jack of all Trades: Music? No. Correct
4. Song of Inspiration: Music? Yes. Correct
5. Expertise: Music? No. Correct
6. Font of Inspiration: Music? Yes. X False
7. Countercharm: Music? Yes. X Optionally
8. Magical Secrets: Music? Yes. X Optionally
9. Superior Inspiration: Music. Yes. X False

So for main Bardic abilties, 7 out of 9 have something to do with music.

That's flatly untrue. I'm honestly surprised you'd so willing to lie about something so obvious.

I've marked it above so people can see. In all cases where you claimed music was involved, the text clearly states otherwise. This is not up for argument. Do you need me to quote every single one? In all cases I am correct - it always clearly states words or music.

College of Lore

1. Cutting Words: Music? Yes. X False
2. Additional Secrets: Music? Yes. X Optionally
3. Peerless Skill: Music? Yes. X False

Again, this is false, and I have marked it.

I think you may be overlooking that since Bardic Inspiration has something to do with music, every single ability that uses inspiration also has something to do with music.

Why lie, when it's so easy to prove? The text says:

You can inspire others through stirring words or music.

It doesn't even mention music first!

Bards are also storytellers, so words can take the place of music. The key is entertainment and USUALLY that takes the form of music with a Bard, but not always.

This is again false. In all cases the text extremely clearly says words or music, or doesn't suggest music at all. There's no "usually". It's an option, not a requirement.

This is most hilarious argument. You're relying on gaslighting me into just going "D'oh, oh okay!" and not just opening up Beyond in another browser window to check the actual wording. Come on.

In British history, when Christianity arrived, Christians embraced the Bard yet demonized the Druid. There must have been a difference between the two. It seems to me, the Bard was fundamentally non-theistic, while the Druid was fundamentally polytheistic.

As someone who studied the history of this period, I'd like to point out that this is complete nonsense with no basis in historical fact.

The rest is the most spurious kind of baseless speculation, indeed it's worse than baseless, it's actually contradictory to historical accounts.

 

[Maxperson]

That's flatly untrue. I'm honestly surprised you'd so willing to lie about something so obvious.

Don't call me a liar. Especially when it's your inability to understand your own words that's at fault here. You claimed that they had NOTHING TO DO with music, which is patently false as I proved. That each of those abilities can key off of MUSIC or words proves they do all have something to do with music.

Unless your next response to me includes an apology, don't respond to me again on this topic.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Don't call me a liar. Especially when it's your inability to understand your own words that's at fault here. You claimed that they had NOTHING TO DO with music, which is patently false as I proved. That each of those abilities can key off of MUSIC or words proves they do all have something to do with music.

Unless your next response to me includes an apology, don't respond to me again on this topic.

I don't agree, but this is semantics - you're trying to claim that you know what I meant, better than I do, which is uh, somewhat problematic to put it mildly.

Let's be really clear - not a single 5E Bard ability in the normal setup requires you to use music, nor does Bardic spellcasting require you to use music. It's an option. Any suggestion otherwise is misleading at best.

So in a sense we're both right - you're right that many of these abilities can involve music (though a couple you said could don't, I notice), and I'm right that not a single one of them requires it.

 

[jasper]

In 5e the Bard is as good of a caster as a Wizard or Cleric. But Bards that cast spells like Wizards cast don't feel very Bard-like. They feel more like a Charisma Wizard. That makes for a mechanically strong class but a thematically weak one. Do 5e Bards have the identity they should have?

We do not. (forges new id to get pass the bouncer FrogReaver).

 

[Maxperson]

I don't agree, but this is semantics - you're trying to claim that you know what I meant, better than I do, which is uh, somewhat problematic to put it mildly.

I'm not talking about what you meant. I'm talking about what you said. Your words were that those abilities have nothing to do with music. Everyone of them that I listed as having something to do with music does have something to do with music. We're discussing the abilities themselves, not any individual bard's choices with how they use those abilities.

Bardic Inspiration the ability says "words or songs," so it does in fact have something to do with music. Joe the Wanderer may use the words option, but that doesn't change the fact that the ability itself has something to do with music.

So in a sense we're both right - you're right that many of these abilities can involve music (though a couple you said could don't, I notice), and I'm right that not a single one of them requires it.

None of those I listed failed to have something to do with music. Some of them didn't specifically use music in the ability itself, but they did mention Inspiration, which does have something to do with music, so the music association goes along with the Inspiration.

I never said requires the use of music. I used your criteria of "having something to do with music."

Edit: You really should apologize for calling me a liar. I didn't lie or even attempt to mislead anyone. What I said was the simple truth.

 

[Mistwell]

In 5e the Bard is as good of a caster as a Wizard or Cleric. But Bards that cast spells like Wizards cast don't feel very Bard-like. They feel more like a Charisma Wizard. That makes for a mechanically strong class but a thematically weak one. Do 5e Bards have the identity they should have?

Bards are just wizards who identify as entertainers.

There's nothing wrong with that identity choice. Stop judging them!