D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[R_J_K75]

Greyhawk is not for everyone. And it depends a lot on the DM running (ruining?) it. I know that a few young people at the hobby store were saying: "Greyhawk has nothing for us..." And yet, when they watched a few games, they bought the box set on the DM Guild and started to play in it. I gave them my 5ed notes on the world and they have not returned to the realm yet. It's been over 7 years now. If the DM knows the setting well and play it as it was intended to be, Greyhawk is simply a fantastic setting because so much of it is easily adapatable to each individual DM. Of course, this can be said of any other settings, but for some reasons, GH just fits the bill in such an elegant way that it is almost too easy to adapt.

Yeah youre right. The DM wasnt good and him and I didn't really get along. I tried to get into the setting regardless of him, I read some of the 2E and 3E source books but it just wasnt for me. The DM just took the Necromancer games module the Crucible of Freya and dumped it into "Greyhawk" without adding any of the settings background or flavor. So now that Im thinking more about it I may get into the setting more with a better DM.

 

[billd91]

Perhaps we could select another acronym? That is a rather unpleasant word to throw about.

Why not just use GH?

 

[R_J_K75]

when I think of Greyhawk I think of the old 1e adventure modules

Same here. Back when we played them they were just a series of adventures strung together with little to no connective tissue. We just played whatever the DM had ready next with little regard for the over all setting, so I never really thought of it as being Greyhawk, just D&D.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Why not just use GH?

It was used to differentiate the Folio (1980) from the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting, aka the Box Set (1983).

GH refers to the campaign setting in general. I’m afraid I don’t catch the reference.

EDIT- just googled; it’s a Britishism I was unaware of.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

@Snarf Zagyg , I'm curious how you feel about Ghosts of Saltmarsh. Specifically, the chapters before the the actual remade adventures; I mean the material detailing the town and the surrounding area of Keoloand.

Was that, in your view, a good representation of how you'd like to see Greyhawk made for 5E (but instead of that one region, the entire Flaeness). Or did you find even the small changes like Tieflings too much deviation?

 

[Shiroiken]

They could open up Greyhawk on the DM Guild.

I would love this. People could accept what they like, and ignore the rest. Of course, I feel they should open up all the old settings.

What does a True Greyhawk Fan (tm) even want out of a 5e setting book? Expanding the areas covered in detail? Updating the timeline? Simple mechanical conversion of the previous setting?

Not speaking for all TGFs, but I really just want to be ignored. @Snarf Zagyg pointed out, we've been burned a LOT. WotC turning Greyhawk into the default pretty much destroyed the setting, because pretty much no one knows what it actually is anymore.

If we did have a 5E book, while I'd like it to be Gygaxian (pre-1985), I know it won't be. I can accept some changes, but would like to see a few more that puts things back a bit in balance by advancing the timeline a few more years (Great Kingdom, Iuz, and Scarlet Brotherhood need addressed). Progressing to some new rulers would help, changing up the political landscape a bit. Oh, and cleaning up some of the half-baked lore on a lot of named NPCs would be nice. Mechanically, not very much needs to be done: some Factions, divine domains for the various gods, the traditional gnome, Tallfellow Halflings, Valley Elves, and maybe some suggestions on how to incorporate non-standard races if desired.

This isn't an argument for how to preserve Greyhawk, it's an argument how to grow the setting into greater prominence among younger gamers.

The best way to grow the setting isn't with nostalgia, despite the desire by grognards by me. The best way is to go back the roots of what made Greyhawk great. Give descriptions about the world, but leave suggestions for filling in the blanks. Mention the powerful NPCs that work behind the scenes, especially the Circle of Eight, so that the DM can use them for inspiration (not to pull an Elminster). Give examples of sword and sorcery style "heroes" to inspire players with the world's moral ambiguity. Greyhawk is an epic battle between the forces of Law and Chaos, Good and Evil, but with Neutrality evening the scales whenever it starts to tip too far. These are the things that make Greyhawk different from the Realms and other standard fantasy campaigns.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I'm sorry, but it seems the demographics are no longer with you on this one.

Let us review: (WotC - Comparing EN World's Demographics to the D&D Community's)

As you noted, Greyhawk material was already waning by 1985 - that was 35 years ago. That means that Greyhawk fans are generally in the 40+ age category... which seems to be around 11% of the current D&D player base.

Greyhawk fans may be vocal, but they no longer hold dominance of gaming's economic pie. It hardly makes sense to put such resources to a project targeting them, considering how critical you note they are.

in what business do you outright write off 11% of your customer base? Business fight for slivers of market share.

also consider product ranges. This is also like saying coke should not produce sprite or Minute Maid orange because a lot of people prefer coke!

it is not an either/or proposition. They don’t dump the realms because of one Greyhawk setting book.

lastly who is really purchasing books? I have 12 or 13 books. How many people/fans have one or just borrow? I think the demographic bands have different purchasing power and habits. Are we even sure 11% of the old guard only purchase 11% of total sales?

 

[R_J_K75]

This is also like saying coke should not produce sprite or Minute Maid orange because a lot of people prefer coke!

I DONT LIKE SPAM!!!

Sorry I couldnt resist.

 

[Zardnaar]

in what business do you outright write off 11% of your customer base? Business fight for slivers of market share.

also consider product ranges. This is also like saying coke should not produce sprite or Minute Maid orange because a lot of people prefer coke!

it is not an either/or proposition. They don’t dump the realms because of one Greyhawk setting book.

lastly who is really purchasing books? I have 12 or 13 books. How many people/fans have one or just borrow? I think the demographic bands have different purchasing power and habits. Are we even sure 11% of the old guard only purchase 11% of total sales?

I'm coming up to 30 books lol.

I lean more towards a good adaption of the 83 boxed set and I didn't play GH back in the day.

It's mostly because TSR metaplot was heavy handed and leaned heavily on "Realms Shaking Events".

If they update the original material you can still do the metaplot if you want or do your own metaplot or even no metaplot.

Can't really do that if they update to where TSR left things.

Do a somewhat faithful adaption if the originals if they bomb don't do it again but we really don't know as at this point anything with a 5E label seems to do well.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I'm coming up to 30 books lol.

I lean more towards a good adaption of the 83 boxed set and I didn't play GH back in the day.

It's mostly because TSR metaplot was heavy handed and leaned heavily on "Realms Shaking Events".

If they update the original material you can still do the metaplot if you want or do your own metaplot or even no metaplot.

Can't really do that if they update to where TSR left things.

Do a somewhat faithful adaption if the originals if they bomb don't do it again but we really don't know as at this point anything with a 5E label seems to do well.

Haha yeah I am 13 books...and about 1000s? in minis and related stuff. Not sure how much of that goes to WOTC.

but of course the group at ENWorld also is skewed in amount bought....I am thinking more generally