D&D 5E (2014) Is 5e Heroic, or SUPER-heroic?

[Doug McCrae]

It seems to me he was discussing a high level homebrew that went beyond the scope of the game as designed. Which strongly implies that he saw the RAW game to not be about "comic book characters".

That's right, but I think he is using the term simply to mean powerful rather than the many other distinctive superhero tropes like secret identities, contemporary setting, etc.

As Gygax is using it to mean 'outside the scope of D&D', OP is using it to mean 'outside the scope of GLOG'.

 

[TheSword]

That means nothing unless you can define what you mean by superhero, otherwise it's just circular. Pretty much all fiction has specific characters.

There are plenty of villains in comics that are seen once and never seen again. Conversely, villains who won't stay dead are common in many genres: Blofield, The Master, Palpatine, Vecna...

Very old fashioned these days, what decade are you living in? That went out when RDJ said "I'm Ironman".

Revivify, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Reincarnation.

Lack of permanent death is very much a feature of D&D (as well as other genres - see: Sherlock Holmes).


You mean like D&D players use the same characters in different games?

Like Jessica Fletcher in Magnum PI?


Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, Dungeonland, Ravenloft, Eberron, Dark Sun anything Blackmoor etc etc

Borrowing from other genres is standard operating procedure for D&D. I've ripped off everything from Treasure Island to Jurassic Park in the last 12 months alone.

Ok I think maybe perspective has been lost somewhere here. It’s been pointed out that the OP
may not have been talking about superheroes per se. However as you’re pressing the point I’m happy to continue.


You are arguing two fallacies...Firstly that the existence of a thing at all is sufficient to make it a trend. Sherlock Holme’s single returning foe out of dozens if not hundreds of cases doesn’t make Sherlocks foes recurrent.

Second fallacy is that in order for something to be a feature of a genre it has to be exclusive to that genre. The fact that Palpatine came back from the dead doesn’t mean Star Wars is superhero fiction, neither does it stop recurrent villains being a feature of superhero fiction.

I’m unclear, are you agreeing that these are the features of superhero fiction? I didn’t make the list obviously. If they aren’t what are the features of superhero fiction would you say? I made it quite clear that these were general trends but I’m struggling to think of a superhero that doesn’t fit most of these features.

It’s interesting that you don’t think recurrent villains are a feature of superhero fiction I would have thought that was one of the classic tropes. Are you perhaps confusing the medium of comics with superhero fiction?

You seem to be arguing two fallacies...Firstly that the existence of a thing at all is sufficient to make it a trend. Sherlock Holme’s single returning foe out of dozens if not hundreds of cases doesn’t make Sherlock’s foes recurrent.

Your second fallacy is th in order for something to be a feature of a genre it has to be exclusive to that genre. The fact that Palpatine came back from the dead doesn’t mean Star Wars is superhero fiction, neither does it stop recurrent villains being a feature of superhero fiction.

You might find it passé but make a list of the superheroes with secret identities and the ones that don’t then come back to me. superhero names are themselves a form of dual identity. What D&D character calls themselves by two distinct personalit unless they’ve chosen to make it part of their

Actual raising from the dead seems to be pretty damn rare. In my experience most players upon death just create a brand new character. I’m aware that some groups start back at lvl1 if they do that or are punished in some form in which case but I get the impression that is relatively uncommon and isn’t intended as the normal mode of play. I can count on one hand the number of resurrections/raising that has happened across hundreds and hundreds of PCs across the groups I’ve played with.

That you borrow from lots of different genres for character ideas is cool. As I said I love that 5e can let you play a murder mystery session but let’s not pretend that session for most parties would look like Murder She Wrote. Jessica and three other pals don’t take out long swords and smite the murderer when they refuse to surrender. I presume when you crib Jurassic Park you don’t travel to a modern laboratory being readied for modern tourists? Whereas superhero fiction actually feeds off and encourages the anachronism to generate ideas for storylines. They encourage the dislocation rather than just borrow ideas. This is very rare in d&d products... barrier peaks and Iron gods being the only times I’m aware of.

I have no problem with superhero fiction. I just don’t think it fits the mold of most normal d&d games. Blurring the boundaries can be fun though.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I'm saying THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SUPERHERO FICTION.

It has no unique features, no unique characteristics, IT DOES NOT EXIST.


NB: I was referring to Sherlock Holmes himself refusing to stay dead, despite his creator's best attempts to kill him, not Moriarty (who does stay dead in the original novels).

 

[TheSword]

That's right, but I think he is using the term simply to mean powerful rather than the many other distinctive superhero tropes like secret identities, contemporary setting, etc.

As Gygax is using it to mean 'outside the scope of D&D', OP is using it to mean 'outside the scope of GOG'.

I think when you separate superhero from all the tropes you don’t really have a superhero any more, you have a fantasy hero which is a quite different though equally valid thing.

 

[TheSword]

I'm saying THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SUPERHERO FICTION.

It has no unique features, no unique characteristics, IT DOES NOT EXIST.

I will respectfully agree to disagree at this point then. The caps letters are a bad sign.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I will respectfully agree to disagree at this point then. The caps letters are a bad sign.

View attachment 125087

You should try clicking on those links, instead of quoting them - they lead to plenty of stuff that is also fantasy, science fiction, or horror.

And if you click on Fantasy, Science Fiction, or Horror you will find superheroes.

If you can't define something it doesn't exist.

It's meaningless. You can nether say D&D is or is not "superhero" unless you can define what you mean by "superhero".

You can ask are D&D characters superhuman? The answer is almost always yes. You can ask are D&D characters heroes? The answer is some are and some aren't.

 

[TheSword]

You should try clicking on those links, instead of quoting them - they lead to plenty of stuff that is also fantasy, science fiction, or horror.

And if you click on Fantasy, Science Fiction, or Horror you will find superheroes.

If you can't define something it doesn't exist.

It's meaningless. You can nether say D&D is or is not "superhero" unless you can define what you mean by "superhero".

You can ask are D&D characters superhuman? The answer is almost always yes. You can ask are D&D characters heroes? The answer is some are and some aren't.

I did read them... where do you think I got the list of features of superhero fiction?

Those books are exactly what I expect to see in a list of superhero books.

Smarter people than I defined superhero fiction. forgive me if don’t give much credit to your claim there is no definition when I just read one that looks perfectly credible to me.

I disagree. Some D&D characters are superhuman and some aren’t. Any class can be built such that they bear little or no resemblance to the superheroes as defined above.

[Edit] The caps shouting and claiming that superhero fiction doesn’t exist when it clearly does means we should probably stop here though. I respectfully disengage from the conversation with you.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I disagree. Some D&D characters are superhuman and some aren’t. Any class can be built such that they bear little or no resemblance to the superheroes as defined above.

Defined where? About the only thing you (and Wikipedia) have come up with that isn't common in other genres is "secret identities", which used to be a thing 30 years ago.

But it is a basic assumption of almost all D&D settings that player characters are better than "commoners" and are, therefore, superhuman.

 

[Flamestrike]

That definition has too many problems to be useful - remember, the Punisher (a fighter with no magic, normal-human strength, and some plot armor) is a Superhero, so the floor for power is really low.

Superheroes come in different flavors or power levels though. From street level heroes (Daredevil, Punisher, Phantom, Green Arrow, Iron Fist etc) through to four colour heroes (Superman, Thor, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, the Hulk).

Batman started as a Street level hero, and then progressed to four colour (when he started doing the Power Armor, Bat-attack-helicopter-spaceship-thing and so forth).

Street level heroes are generally superbly trained humans, or low level super-humans with limited powers. You generally dont see them firing beams of energy from their hands, flying, teleporting, throwing around trucks like confetti or whatnot. MCU's Defenders feature 'street level' heroes. These guys fight street crime, and occasionally deal with a threat to their city or community.

Four colour heroes are superhuman and display fantastic abilities, technology and power on a cosmic or near cosmic scale. The MCU Avengers and DC Justice League are examples, and they're fighting cosmic and existential threats to the entire Earth (and indeed the Universe).

In DnD terms, at T1 and early T2 PCs are roughly equal in power to Street level superheroes. A 5th level PC would be a match for Daredevil, Phantom, Punisher etc. By the time the PCs have hit T4 they're sitting at Avengers levels of power and dealing with the same sorts of threats.

When an Illithid armada plane shifts in over Waterdeep, led by an immortal CR30 Elder Brain of the God that predated Ao and bearing 5 linked artifacts of ancient Tharizdun, seeking to uncreate the Universe, it's the 20th level PCs who get the job to stop them.

 

[Flamestrike]

5e has a suggestion from the devs on how many magic items to hand out, but that's it. It states in no uncertain language that the DM can hand out as much or as little treasure as they choose. That's RAW.

And for the gazillionth time this thread, Im talking about the core assumptions of DnD. Not how YOU play it. Not how many magic items YOU hand out.

The core assumptions are reflected in Greyhawk, Faerun, Dragonlance, Eberron, Mystara etc. Pantheons of deities, magic items, spells of 1st-9th level, and so forth. The stuff found in pretty much every campaign setting and adventure ever released for the game we're talking about throughout 5 editions and for 40 odd years.

Im referring to default magic item distribution in THOSE adventures, according to the Guidelines for handing out magic items in THOSE worlds, in games and settings that feature magic items (which assuming you're running your games in Core settings, is ALL of them).

YOU could be playing in a 'gritty' low magic setting without magic items in a different setting. Im not talking about YOUR low magic campaign, Im talking about a 'standard' game of DnD as it's been played according to those core assumptions above.