D&D 5E Is 5e Heroic, or SUPER-heroic?

[Fanaelialae]

And for the gazillionth time this thread, Im talking about the core assumptions of DnD. Not how YOU play it. Not how many magic items YOU hand out.

The core assumptions are reflected in Greyhawk, Faerun, Dragonlance, Eberron, Mystara etc. Pantheons of deities, magic items, spells of 1st-9th level, and so forth. The stuff found in pretty much every campaign setting and adventure ever released for the game we're talking about throughout 5 editions and for 40 odd years.

Im referring to default magic item distribution in THOSE adventures, according to the Guidelines for handing out magic items in THOSE worlds, in games and settings that feature magic items (which assuming you're running your games in Core settings, is ALL of them).

YOU could be playing in a 'gritty' low magic setting without magic items in a different setting. Im not talking about YOUR low magic campaign, Im talking about a 'standard' game of DnD as it's been played according to those core assumptions above.

I am talking about standard 5e. If you choose to give out a maul of the titans and belt of giant strength, that certainly does not mean that everyone does. Yes, I think it's safe to say that most D&D games feature a significant number of magic items. I don't agree that it's a logical leap from there to assuming that most high level parties look like the Avengers.

I'm not making assumptions about what people's games look like. I said that they can run the gamut of the spectrum, and that's RAW. You're the one who seems to be insisting that the majority of games look like yours.

Regarding my own campaign, as I believe I stated above, I do generally follow the typical treasure distribution from the DMG, but most of that treasure is random. Hence, the players would need to be overwhelmingly lucky to obtain both a maul of the titans and a belt of giant strength, or all have the capability of flight. I've run a few high level campaigns, but I have yet to see anything of that sort happen. Given the treasure tables in the DMG, it does not seem unreasonable that there are DMs out there who use randomized treasure. I'm not suggesting that it's the standard, but I do think it's a possibility.

Randomized treasure is typically far less potent than treasure chosen for optimal use. It also results in heroes who don't really resemble superheroes, IMO. Less Tony Stark, more McGuyver.

 

[Flamestrike]

Okay so it has nothing to do with abilities per say, just the tiers of play. so Punisher, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones etc must all be Tier 1 because they deal with local issues? That sounds like a very campaign specific way of deciding these things.

Yeah basically. At Tier 1 (and early T2) the PCs are 'local heroes/ heroes of the realm' (according to the DMG). They're dealing with street level threats (Orcs etc) and local threats to their town, city or village (the evil Necromancer and his cult threatening the town or city) - just like the Defenders.

They have low level super-powers, or peak human abilities. They're special.

At T4 they're dealing with existential threats to the existence of the planet (or worse) using clearly superhuman abilities to do so. They're the Avengers now.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Its use has a long tradition in D&D. Gary Gygax used the term "comic book characters" (I think meaning high-powered superheroes rather than, say, Archie or Donald Duck) to talk about very high level D&D in 1976. "D&D is Only as Good as the DM" in Strategic Review Vol II No 2 (1976):

"There are no monsters to challenge the capabilities of 30th level lords, 40th level patriarchs, and so on. Now I know of the games played at CalTech where the rules have been expanded and changed to reflect incredibly high levels, comic book characters and spells, and so on."

That definition of comic book character (by power level) would mean that, say, captain America isn't a comic book character.

Alternatively, if we're meant to use the phrase comic book literally, we need to remove Snarf... who is for a DnD comic.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Okay so it has nothing to do with abilities per say, just the tiers of play. so Punisher, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones etc must all be Tier 1 because they deal with local issues? That sounds like a very campaign specific way of deciding these things.

The tier descriptions are in the core rules. Whist individual campaigns can ignore them, they have to be considered standard. And those descriptions match very closely to the ones used to describe various levels of superhero.

 

[Flamestrike]

I am talking about standard 5e.

I am. Im not here to talk about your campaign. This isnt an exercise in postmodernism man.

Im talking about the core assumptions of DnD as reflected in its published campaign settings, rules, and adventures for 40 years.

You dont have superheroic PCs (somehow - in a game featuring Wizards who can alter reality and travel the planes of existence and kill with a word, and humans who can kill dragons with their bare hands). Good for you. It's not relevant to the conversation though.

 

[TheSword]

Are D&D PCs superheroes? Well, the most powerful wizard in the most popular fantasy fiction was only 5th level by comparison

View attachment 125093

It’s a classic article... I love it. Though Peter Jackson made him a 15th level fighter

 

[TheSword]

The tier descriptions are in the core rules. Whist individual campaigns can ignore them, they have to be considered standard. And those descriptions match very closely to the ones used to describe various levels of superhero.

I’ve politely requested we disengage. I’m not trying to stop you enjoying the thread but can you please stop responding to my posts. This is the third request now.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That definition of comic book character (by power level) would mean that, say, captain America isn't a comic book character.

The definition of comic book character pretty much has to be "originally appeared in a comic book".

Which isn't very helpful. Desperate Dan is undoubtedly a comic book character, but he isn't a superhero (even though he also has superstrength).

 

[Flamestrike]

Are D&D PCs superheroes? Well, the most powerful wizard in the most popular fantasy fiction was only 5th level by comparison

View attachment 125093

Gandalf is a Lore Bard. With a Paladin dip. You can pretty faithfully recreate him using those two classes actually.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I’ve politely requested we disengage. I’m not trying to stop you enjoying the thread but can you please stop responding to my posts. This is the third request now.

Sorry, I'm chaotic neutral.