D&D 5E Is 5e Heroic, or SUPER-heroic?

[Flamestrike]

The definition of comic book character pretty much has to be "originally appeared in a comic book".

According to Stan Lee:

''A superhero is a person who does heroic deeds and has the ability to do them in a way that a normal person couldn't. So in order to be a superhero, you need a power that is more exceptional than any power a normal human being could possess, and you need to use that power to accomplish good deeds. ''

That defines every single (Good aligned) PC at T4.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I am. Im not here to talk about your campaign. This isnt an exercise in postmodernism man.

Im talking about the core assumptions of DnD as reflected in its published campaign settings, rules, and adventures for 40 years.

You dont have superheroic PCs (somehow - in a game featuring Wizards who can alter reality and travel the planes of existence and kill with a word, and humans who can kill dragons with their bare hands). Good for you. It's not relevant to the conversation though.

This thread is about 5e. It's literally in the title of the thread. It's what I've been taking about. Pretty sure what most of us have been talking about.

Other editions handled things differently, but 5e is its own thing. It doesn't make sense to discuss 40 years of settings in a thread about 5e, unless you can demonstrate their applicability to 5e.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

According to Stan Lee:

''A superhero is a person who does heroic deeds and has the ability to do them in a way that a normal person couldn't. So in order to be a superhero, you need a power that is more exceptional than any power a normal human being could possess, and you need to use that power to accomplish good deeds. ''

That defines every single (Good aligned) PC at T4.

It also fails to define The Punisher (neither superpowered, nor heroic), from Mr Lee's own comics.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Gandalf is a Lore Bard. With a Paladin dip. You can pretty faithfully recreate him using those two classes actually.

Well, that article was written in 1979, so it needs to be read in context (lore bards didn't exist then)

 

[Flamestrike]

It’s a classic article... I love it. Though Peter Jackson made him a 15th level fighter

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Paladin levels. He used his Bard slots to Smite the Balrog.

He was bothered by its legendary resistance and immunity to being Charmed.

 

[TheSword]

I am talking about standard 5e. If you choose to give out a maul of the titans and belt of giant strength, that certainly does not mean that everyone does. Yes, I think it's safe to say that most D&D games feature a significant number of magic items. I don't agree that it's a logical leap from there to assuming that most high level parties look like the Avengers.

I'm not making assumptions about what people's games look like. I said that they can run the gamut of the spectrum, and that's RAW. You're the one who seems to be insisting that the majority of games look like yours.

Regarding my own campaign, as I believe I stated above, I do generally follow the typical treasure distribution from the DMG, but most of that treasure is random. Hence, the players would need to be overwhelmingly lucky to obtain both a maul of the titans and a belt of giant strength, or all have the capability of flight. I've run a few high level campaigns, but I have yet to see anything of that sort happen. Given the treasure tables in the DMG, it does not seem unreasonable that there are DMs out there who use randomized treasure. I'm not suggesting that it's the standard, but I do think it's a possibility.

Randomized treasure is typically far less potent than treasure chosen for optimal use. It also results in heroes who don't really resemble superheroes, IMO. Less Tony Stark, more McGuyver.

If I’m honest I agree with @Flamestrike to be honest on the question of magic items. If we went by the items given out in the actual 5e modules my players would be Very Very disapppointed.

I’m finding I’m having to add large number of items beyond what published campaigns provide. It’s a pain in the arse.

I don’t think the artifacts in Age Worms was unusual even for 5e particularly as most of them are specifically encountered to deal with the main campaign threat.

I just try and avoid certain items like the flying ones because they change the tone of the game so much. That just might be my style of campaign though. Making flying concentration based was probably my single favourite change in 5e.

 

[Flamestrike]

It also fails to define The Punisher (neither superpowered, nor heroic), from Mr Lee's own comics.

Thats because the Punisher is not a Superhero. He's an anti-hero. He's not Good aligned.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It also fails to define The Punisher (neither superpowered, nor heroic), from Mr Lee's own comics.

I wouldn't classify Frank Castle as a superhero. For abilities or for actions/behavior.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Superheroes come in different flavors or power levels though. From street level heroes (Daredevil, Punisher, Phantom, Green Arrow, Iron Fist etc) through to four colour heroes (Superman, Thor, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, the Hulk).

snip

In DnD terms, at T1 and early T2 PCs are roughly equal in power to Street level superheroes. A 5th level PC would be a match for Daredevil, Phantom, Punisher etc. By the time the PCs have hit T4 they're sitting at Avengers levels of power and dealing with the same sorts of threats.

When an Illithid armada plane shifts in over Waterdeep, led by an immortal CR30 Elder Brain of the God that predated Ao and bearing 5 linked artifacts of ancient Tharizdun, seeking to uncreate the Universe, it's the 20th level PCs who get the job to stop them.

Which is all true, but "equal in power to" does not mean "is the same as." A jedi knight is equal in power to most X-Men, I would say - but calling Star Wars a "superhero story" would be misleading.

The later (world-ending threats) is also a common trope in fantasy stories where the Dark One is poised to destroy everything, unless the hero intervenes - but I wouldn't call Rand Al'Thor a superhero. Or Frodo, for that matter.

I don't know a good definition of superhero, but that's the whole point: without an agreed-upon definition, there's no distinction to be made. I do know that trying to use power levels fails at capturing how people actually use the term. DnD can have superheroes or not, at any level, depending on whether or not you play them like superheroes, whatever that means.

 

[Flamestrike]

If I’m honest I agree with @Flamestrike to be honest on the question of magic items. If we went by the items given out in the actual 5e modules my players would be Very Very disapppointed.

I’m finding I’m having to add large number of items beyond what published campaigns provide. It’s a pain in the arse.

I don’t think the artifacts in Age Worms was unusual even for 5e particularly as most of them are specifically encountered to deal with the main campaign threat.

Most 'Adventure Paths' in 5E to date feature at least 1 artifact and several legendary items.

PoTA has the 4 weapons, the annhilation spheres and so forth. HoT has the Dragon masks, and Harizwan (and a flying castle) plus others. Etc.

And they only go to like 15th or lower level. Not even into T4 properly. Both of those adventures also have the PCs dealing with Realm wide threats.