D&D 5E Is 5e Heroic, or SUPER-heroic?

[Flamestrike]

Yes I don’t think the published modules match the Tiers of Play at all to be honest. I can live with that but the magic items are extremely thin on the ground.

A lot of the items you just discussed are practically useless from a PC point of view.

Wouldnt say they're thin on the ground. Again, Im not handing out magic items like confetti or running a Gonzo campaign setting.

Most PCs in published 5E AP's I've run wind up with +1-2 weapons/ armor, a magic staff, a notable legendary or two (Harizwan, a Dragon mask, one of the 4 Elemental weapons, the trappings of the Raven etc), several potions and scrolls, a bag of holding and other miscellaneous items by mid to late T2 (7th-11th level).

And that's just the stuff found in the Adventure and not from 'side adventures' and random hoards outside the text of the adventure etc.

 

[Flamestrike]

This definition excludes Batman,

No it doesnt. Batman has things normal humans dont possess. A combination of training, experience, wealth, drive and some 'Iron Man' tech that place him above and beyond a normal person.

He used all the above to go toe to toe with Superman (DCU) and win.

 

[Flamestrike]

Frodo isn't the Superhero, Aragorn is.

Neither are Superheroes (Aragorn might qualify due to his supernatural abilities of Herb lore, tracking, endurance, spirit summoning and the like).

My point is the protagonists of LoTR are not the protagonists of T4 DnD. You cant compare Aragorn, Frodo and Gimli with 20th level DnD heroes who more closely resemble the cast of the Avengers than they do the latter Fellowship.

It's why these threads get heated. A sizeable portion of DMs want 'gritty LoTR style Fantasy' and try and emulate it with DnD. A cursory look at DnDs rules and classes (and campaign settings) show you DnD is not Middle Earth. It's an over the top Gonzo high magic super-hero Wuxia fantasy ruleset.

You can spot those DMs by the way. Fumble rules, insta death, and rage-quitting the campaign at mid T2.

 

[jmartkdr2]

No it doesnt. Batman has things normal humans dont possess. A combination of training, experience, wealth, drive and some 'Iron Man' tech that place him above and beyond a normal person.

He used all the above to go toe to toe with Superman (DCU) and win.

Then as a single-test definition, like i said above, this includes anyone who can do something that most people can't do. Most people can't juggle, but I wouldn't call jugglers superheroes. (or supervillains) Most people could learn to juggle, but the whole point of batman is that he doesn't have any abilities you couldn't hypothetically learn. He's the apex of human, but possesses no super-human abilities. He is still, however, a superhero.

It would again, also mean that all DnD player characters, in every edition, are superheroes. Along with Frodo.

 

[Flamestrike]

Then as a single-test definition, like i said above, this includes anyone who can do something that most people can't do. Most people can't juggle, but I wouldn't call jugglers superheroes.

The Juggler?

He's a Supervillian actually.

It would again, also mean that all DnD player characters, in every edition, are superheroes. Along with Frodo.

Technically true.

But Frodo isnt MCU Thor or Iron Man. He's a normal guy who wins against the odds, in the face of supernatural evil.

DnD characters (like Marvel Superheroes) just fly over to Saurons lair, and beat him to a pulp on even terms.

 

[Scott Christian]

Neither are Superheroes (Aragorn might qualify due to his supernatural abilities of Herb lore, tracking, endurance, spirit summoning and the like).

My point is the protagonists of LoTR are not the protagonists of T4 DnD. You cant compare Aragorn, Frodo and Gimli with 20th level DnD heroes who more closely resemble the cast of the Avengers than they do the latter Fellowship.

It's why these threads get heated. A sizeable portion of DMs want 'gritty LoTR style Fantasy' and try and emulate it with DnD. A cursory look at DnDs rules and classes (and campaign settings) show you DnD is not Middle Earth. It's an over the top Gonzo high magic super-hero Wuxia fantasy ruleset.

You can spot those DMs by the way. Fumble rules, insta death, and rage-quitting the campaign at mid T2.

Those are good points. I wouldn't use the term rage quitting, as it implies many are immature. Many might want to start a new campaign after Tier 2 because they like the lower levels better.

Interesting enough, the Wuxia style fantasy call out. I am curious if you have played Legend of the Five Rings? I have not. (Bought the book and started reading it, but then loaned it to a friend. Still do not have it back.) But, from the small part I read, it's funny. It seems as though their rulesets fit better for the LotR style fantasy than D&D.

 

[Garthanos]

They're superheroes at 8th level. Aren't they?

They cure dead at 8th level i will say yes they are supers.... or atleast casters are.

 

[TheSword]

Neither are Superheroes (Aragorn might qualify due to his supernatural abilities of Herb lore, tracking, endurance, spirit summoning and the like).

My point is the protagonists of LoTR are not the protagonists of T4 DnD. You cant compare Aragorn, Frodo and Gimli with 20th level DnD heroes who more closely resemble the cast of the Avengers than they do the latter Fellowship.

It's why these threads get heated. A sizeable portion of DMs want 'gritty LoTR style Fantasy' and try and emulate it with DnD. A cursory look at DnDs rules and classes (and campaign settings) show you DnD is not Middle Earth. It's an over the top Gonzo high magic super-hero Wuxia fantasy ruleset.

You can spot those DMs by the way. Fumble rules, insta death, and rage-quitting the campaign at mid T2.

Lol, I like to chart a middle way. Never used fumbles, insta-death and starting new PCs a level lower than live ones.

However neither do I allow PCs to go crazy. They remain thoroughly down to earth. The enemies they face may display amazing cosmic power but the PCs definitely don’t. As I said, I play it like the Witcher. Magic is a boon and only becomes amazing when dedicated to.

Of course a character can fly around firing disintegration rays. But in 5e that character has 50 hp and will die from a round of attacks from a dragon.

 

[jmartkdr2]

The Juggler?

He's a Supervillian actually.

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Technically true.

But Frodo isnt MCU Thor or Iron Man. He's a normal guy who wins against the odds, in the face of supernatural evil.

DnD characters (like Marvel Superheroes) just fly over to Saurons lair, and beat him to a pulp on even terms.

DnD characters of a certain level could do that, but plenty of superheroes couldn't (ie anyone not the Justice League).

I'm still not convinced you can define superheroes buy what they can do, because the list of superheroes is too broad.

 

[Flamestrike]

However neither do I allow PCs to go crazy. They remain thoroughly down to earth. The enemies they face may display amazing cosmic power but the PCs definitely don’t.

At 20th level, they are displaying Cosmic Power. How do you 'ground' a Wizard 20 that can fly, travel to other realities, clone himself, be immune to damage and alter reality with a word?