D&D 5E Is 5e Heroic, or SUPER-heroic?

[Paul Farquhar]

Thats because the Punisher is not a Superhero. He's an anti-hero. He's not Good aligned.

Exactly.

Which is kind of the point I was making. Punisher is not a superhero, ergo comics about the Punisher are no more "superhero" than The Beano. Except that most people say that they are. "Superhero" is not a genre.

 

[Flamestrike]

The later (world-ending threats) is also a common trope in fantasy stories where the Dark One is poised to destroy everything, unless the hero intervenes - but I wouldn't call Rand Al'Thor a superhero. Or Frodo, for that matter.

Is Frodo flying through the air, firing disintegration beams out of his hands, after dealing with a nest of Beholders and Illithid monsters, and beating down Smaug bare handed?

Because that's just a standard adventuring day for his DnD counterparts.

 

[Flamestrike]

Exactly.

Which is kind of the point I was making. Punisher is not a superhero, ergo comics about the Punisher are no more "superhero" than The Beano. Except that most people say that they are. "Superhero" is not a genre.

Its not a genre?

Guess that rules out Superhero movies and RPG's then.

Ill give Disney a call and let them know to can Phase 2.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Is Frodo flying through the air, firing disintegration beams out of his hands, after dealing with a nest of Beholders and Illithid monsters, and beating down Smaug bare handed?

Because that's just a standard adventuring day for his DnD counterparts.

Frodo isn't the Superhero, Aragorn is. Which is kind of the point of the story. Tolkien focuses on the difference ordinary folk can make.

But that's not D&D.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Is Frodo flying through the air, firing disintegration beams out of his hands, after dealing with a nest of Beholders and Illithid monsters, and beating down Smaug bare handed?

Because that's just a standard adventuring day for his DnD counterparts.

I think it's fair to say (and obvious dare I say), to claim that most characters in the more popular fantasy literature would be considered lower level D&D PCs by comparison, if statt'd out.

 

[Minigiant]

This is why I prefer to see superheroes in a matter of stakes and effects over raw power.

In 5e, you are a superhero at level 11. You are a major player of the world if you are active in it. Even if you are inactive or hidden, knowledge of your existence can shift the world.

This is different from a hero who is just local or national. We call our hometown heroes just heroes.

You became a supe when the president or king has a file on you and it's hidden.

 

[Scott Christian]

You should try clicking on those links, instead of quoting them - they lead to plenty of stuff that is also fantasy, science fiction, or horror.

And if you click on Fantasy, Science Fiction, or Horror you will find superheroes.

If you can't define something it doesn't exist.

It's meaningless. You can nether say D&D is or is not "superhero" unless you can define what you mean by "superhero".

You can ask are D&D characters superhuman? The answer is almost always yes. You can ask are D&D characters heroes? The answer is some are and some aren't.

I think maybe you are taking aim at the use of the word genre, which in library circles has been debated since the 1930's and probably earlier.

By your take there is only non-fiction and fiction. The people debating you are using genre as in literary genres defined by almost all librarians, critics, novelists, and avid readers of said genre. In your definition, there is no mystery genre either, as those can contain elements of other genres. There is no dystopian genre because it may contain elements of fantasy or sci-fi.

You are correct when you say it is vague and cannot be clearly defined. 100%. But, for the moment, try putting on the genre hat for a minute.

 

[TheSword]

Most 'Adventure Paths' in 5E to date feature at least 1 artifact and several legendary items.

PoTA has the 4 weapons, the annhilation spheres and so forth. HoT has the Dragon masks, and Harizwan (and a flying castle) plus others. Etc.

And they only go to like 15th or lower level. Not even into T4 properly. Both of those adventures also have the PCs dealing with Realm wide threats.

Yes I don’t think the published modules match the Tiers of Play at all to be honest. I can live with that but the magic items are extremely thin on the ground.

A lot of the items you just discussed are practically useless from a PC point of view.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Is Frodo flying through the air, firing disintegration beams out of his hands, after dealing with a nest of Beholders and Illithid monsters, and beating down Smaug bare handed?

Because that's just a standard adventuring day for his DnD counterparts.

True - but I wouldn't call Frodo a superhero. But he certainly faces the stakes a superhero does, therefore we can't use stakes (alone) as a defining feature of superheroes.

According to Stan Lee:

''A superhero is a person who does heroic deeds and has the ability to do them in a way that a normal person couldn't. So in order to be a superhero, you need a power that is more exceptional than any power a normal human being could possess, and you need to use that power to accomplish good deeds. ''

That defines every single (Good aligned) PC at T4.

This definition excludes Batman, which I'm sure Mr. Lee would agree is a flaw in the definition, not proof that Batman isn't a superhero. If we instead read the word "normal" to mean "a statistically average person - then Frodo resists the temptation of the ring, which is exceptional, and now we have nearly any protagonist is a superhero, since the protagonist is the stuff interesting things happen to. As well as any level 1 pc in any edition of DnD... which is uselessly broad.

So we've gotten rid of stakes or power or special-ness as defining traits. I'm seeing a pattern of not being able to define superheroes by in-universe standards.

 

[TheSword]

Yeah basically. At Tier 1 (and early T2) the PCs are 'local heroes/ heroes of the realm' (according to the DMG). They're dealing with street level threats (Orcs etc) and local threats to their town, city or village (the evil Necromancer and his cult threatening the town or city) - just like the Defenders.

They have low level super-powers, or peak human abilities. They're special.

At T4 they're dealing with existential threats to the existence of the planet (or worse) using clearly superhuman abilities to do so. They're the Avengers now.

I think this is a good way of looking at if, it not the only satisfying way to compare characters from different genres and systems as it gets away from the question of powers and instead looks at influence.

It also allows for superheroes that run the gamut from level 1-20 but also allows for non-supers to run the same.