D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Urriak Uruk]

It was fine. To begin with, the original U Series (Saltmarsh) wasn't exactly heavy Greyhawk! But it neither particularly offended, nor made me stand up and go, "A ha! They have it! That's it!" Probably because the material could be easily transposed into any campaign setting (how much work would it take to use that material in a FR setting?).

On the second point, I think that most of the peripheral debates about Greyhawk are usually red herrings for the real issue. It's not (in my mind) really about Tieflings and Dragonborn and whatever.

It's a debate between those who want to have Greyhawk released in some way that respects the integrity of the setting, and those who just see it as a grabbag of names and things to use for 5e. It would not be overly difficult to have an amazing new Greyhawk that has the capacity to include "Tieflings" (modded as fiendish and Iuz) and Dragonborn (exotic seafarers from the blank parts of the map, perhaps?). Who knows?

But I would hate for them to just release a Greyhawk as another default, kitchen sink setting.

Hm. This didn't really answer my question, being what you thought specifically about the content centered around Keoland and the town of Saltmarsh.

I'm sensing a bit of a problem here, in that a lot of Greyhawk players don't want Greyhawk to be super-filled in, detailing nearly as much information as FR does because they want more of a sandbox that DMs can fill themselves.

However, if you make Greyhawk too vague, it seems more like a kitchen sink (using your words) that can be planted in any "generic default fantasy."

I thought Ghosts of Saltmarsh struck that balance quite well, feeling tonally distinct from FR and more of a rugged, frontier setting. But you took it as still too generic.

So yeah, not really sure what release is going to make most Greyhawk fans happy. I'm starting to think it is better to just steamroll over GH fans complaints as their too contradictory, and just make a book with the style (editing/format of book, not the tone/material) of Eberron: the Last War.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Hm. This didn't really answer my question, being what you thought specifically about the content centered around Keoland and the town of Saltmarsh.

Pretty sure I started with the answer?

"It was fine. To begin with, the original U Series (Saltmarsh) wasn't exactly heavy Greyhawk! But it neither particularly offended, nor made me stand up and go, "A ha! They have it! That's it!" Probably because the material could be easily transposed into any campaign setting (how much work would it take to use that material in a FR setting?)."

But Chapter 1 (Saltmarsh), consisting of 29 pages, was fine. It has carousing. It had a dreadnaught with a mad wizard. It had some nice touches. It was fine.

That's not a small thing- there's been a lot of material than used Greyhawk that was, most assuredly, not fine. But it's just some background to an AP. I didn't read it and think that this was the Campaign Setting I had been looking for.

 

[Mort]

@Snarf Zagyg (or anyone with an opinion who wants to answer really) what was your reaction to the 3e (3.5-4e really) Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

@Snarf Zagyg (or anyone with an opinion who wants to answer really) what was your reaction to the 3e (3.5-4e really) Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk?

It's ... complicated.

I'd love to give you an analogy, but I don't have one. As an actual adventure, it's not that good (IMO). But it does show someone clearly loved the original material, which is great!

...and then there are so many nods to the past, which is awesome. But it starts to feel like all fan service, no substance. Which isn't awesome.

So, mixed? Is that fair?

 

[Remathilis]

It's ... complicated.

I'd love to give you an analogy, but I don't have one. As an actual adventure, it's not that good (IMO). But it does show someone clearly loved the original material, which is great!

...and then there are so many nods to the past, which is awesome. But it starts to feel like all fan service, no substance. Which isn't awesome.

So, mixed? Is that fair?

You basically described the Star Wars sequel trilogy, so it's fair.

 

[Mort]

It's ... complicated.

I'd love to give you an analogy, but I don't have one. As an actual adventure, it's not that good (IMO). But it does show someone clearly loved the original material, which is great!

...and then there are so many nods to the past, which is awesome. But it starts to feel like all fan service, no substance. Which isn't awesome.

So, mixed? Is that fair?

That's more than fair -and actually mirrors my opinion.

Clearly it's a labor of love with an attempt to do the original material justice. But the actual adventure - why is it so hard to write a good published adventure with the resources these guys have?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You basically described the Star Wars sequel trilogy, so it's fair.

Star Wars AND Greyhawk?

Don't cross the streams. ....it would be bad.

 

[The Glen]

If you're going to bring back Greyhawk you have to pitch it to the new players. The grogs already have made up their mind, but for the new players, it's a brand new setting. You have to convince them that it's a great setting to play in. Talk up the low powered magic aspect, the split between the nobles and the commoners, the constant threat from other nations or threats just outside of civilization, and the numerous hidden threats like the Scarlet Brotherhood. Make it grim but not dark, talk about how disease is a constant threat because there's not enough high-level clerics to stop an outbreak. People are poor, adventurers can stop the monsters but are powerless to prevent the brush wars that plague the setting. To reference a recent topic with the combat wheelchair, people would need things like wheelchairs because there's maybe three people in an entire setting that can heal them, but you couldn't build the magical version because there are a dozen wizards that know how and they are too busy to help the little people.

Greyhawk would be muddy and overcast. It's dirty, there are more mercenaries than the nations can use unless it's in a time of war. This leads to a large number of bandits. A dragon is a once in a lifetime event, and you'll find the burned-out remains of the town from an attack decades back. The biggest threat is other humans, whether they are brigands or warmongering nobles. Paint that picture and you'll bring in new players, because that is far different than Forgotten Realms.

 

[Doug McCrae]

A dragon is a once in a lifetime event

The encounter tables in the 1983 Greyhawk boxed set mostly default to those in the 1e AD&D DMG. Per the DMG pg 184 in sub-arctic mountains there's a higher chance of meeting a white dragon (10%) than a wolf (7%).

 

[Helldritch]

The encounter tables in the 1983 Greyhawk boxed set mostly default to those in the 1e AD&D DMG. Per the DMG pg 184 in sub-arctic mountains there's a higher chance of meeting a white dragon (10%) than a wolf (7%).

Yep, but it said that most dragon encounters are actually sightings. Unless the group looks weak, the dragon will simply go away. Remember that the first edition dragons were not the power house that we have today. There was a reason that the first Forgotten Realm box set introduced 11th and 12th age categories of draconic power. Some (if not all) encounter tables would need adjustments by today's standards.