D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

[Azzy]

Remember when this was about the content, and how some people want to amend it, and not some kind of personal thing? sigh.

Right? There were some legitimate complaints along with a bit of nitpicking (including some of my own), but there was also proposals to rectify these issues. But then came the hipsters who decided to tear down the entire adventure, the developers, and WotC for the the same kind of over-the-top "up to eleven"ism that is all too common in genre fiction. G.R.R. Martin, who has been brought up in this very thread for also having multi-year long X-treme winters in his fiction doesn't get denigrated for writing "slop" or being the downfall of his oeuvre (instead he gets a nice book deal where he laugh at deadlines and has his work made into TV shows).

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One of the nitpicks that is brought up is that two years of winter would have a dramatic effect on the setting. This is absolutely true, and the adventure even acknowledges this in passing:

This prolonged winter, which has gone on for more than two years, threatens to doom not just the flickering lights of civilization known as Ten-Towns but also the indigenous flora and fauna that need sunlight and the change of seasons to survive.

I have not read enough of the adventure yet to see if it goes into any further detail to address the ramifications of the two-year winter aside from one-offs like:

FUEL SOURCES
The folk of Ten-Towns don't have a lot of options when it comes to keeping warm. People from Good Mead, Lonelywood, and Termalame burn wood salvaged from nearby forests to heat their houses. In the other towns of lcewind Dale, wood is too precious a commodity to burn, so whale oil is used in lamps and small stoves around which townsfolk huddle for warmth.

Ten-Towners buy their whale oil from whalers who live on the shores of the Sea of Moving Ice. Whaling is thus a lucrative (if inherently dangerous) business in lcewmd Dale.

If we want to keep the two-years of winter as the book outlines rather than abbreviating it to be a much more recent onset of Überwinterung der endlosen Nacht (forgive my Google translation, but hyperbolic terms are more fun in German), we could instead split the difference with the OP and interpret it that "Auril's everlasting winter" (or "Aurils ewiger Winter", for more Google German—hopefully a native German-speaking poster can come in and skewer these translations and berate me soundly) started simply as the failure of normal winter to properly give way to spring, and has since slowly getting colder while also having the days get incrementally shorter as Auril fights uphill against the turning of the seasons, the daylight, and power of the gods that preside over them. As she invests more and more of her power each night, her magics slowly overwhelm the nature of things until several months ago (or whenever the DM feels is appropriate) "Der Winter, der Dungeonmeister Angst macht" (okay, I'll stop with that, now) reached its current state.

Sure, it's still not realistic and it still has issues as to how exactly that would affect the communities, flora, and fauna of IWD, but it's a starting place.

Temperatures. During Auril's everlasting winter, the average temperature in lcewind Dale is -49 degrees Fahrenheit (-45 degrees Celsius). Wind chill can lower these temperatures by as much as 80 degrees.

As Jasper and I pointed out, probably the most egregious thing that's been brought up is the temperatures, wind chill, and wind speeds needed to cause such wind chills. Since this is a magically-induced ever-winter created by an intermediate goddess in a fit of pique, let's see what IWD is normally like: In the 2e supplement, The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier*, the climate of the Frozenfar is described thus:

Arctic Climate
Arctic climate conditions dominate Icewind Dale and the Sea of Endless Ice, bringing bitterly cold winters with lows of -40° F and highs rarely exceeding 30° F. Summer brings warm days of 70° F or more, but with lows that can drop to 11-19° F. Stiff breezes off the Trackless Sea create bitter wind chills by as much as 10-20° F. Winter snowfall is heavy enough to regenerate the glacier mass dominating the Utter North. This translates to about 20-50 inches of snow accumulation each winter, but no more than a few inches each snowfall. The rest of the year, drier weather prevails.

I would have thought something more along the lines of a subarctic climate, predominantly taiga (with the trees growing sparse to nonexistent away from the lakes) and tundra, but maybe they just mangled the term "arctic climate". Looking for a roughly comparable real-world equivalent in terms of climate and biome, I propose Happy Valley-Goose Bay in Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada rather than Greenland, however (the choice absolutely had nothing to do with it having an awesome name).

In comparison to the climate data we were given in The North, here's how Happy Valley-Goose Bay shapes up: Summers have an average high/low of 67℉ (19.4℃)/47.2℉ (8.4℃), with a record high/low of 100.0℉ (37.8℃)/24.4℉ (-4.2℃). Winters have an average high/low of 13.4℉ (-10.3℃)/-4.3℉ (-20.2℃), with a record high/low of 52.1℉ (11.2℃)/-37℉ (-38.3℃).

IWD seems to roughly fall in line with HVGB if you read between the numbers. Though, since it gives extremes rather than averages, it seems to paint a more radical picture than what might actually be experienced. Given that bias, it's little wonder that when these were used as a baseline from which to turn up to 11 for Auril's X-treme Winter (which should be unnaturally cold in comparison to IWD's normal winters), the results were X-treme². Still, giving -49℉ (-45℃) as the average for Auril's Winter Special isn't out of bounds (I would have stuck with ICD's mundane extreme of -40℉/-40℃ as the new average instead, but whatever). If that's the new average, what about the new low (because now need to reach a new low... )? Let's say there are diminishing returns of how further cold it get due to natural temperature variations (Auril's magic making it colder than she already has is beyond the scope of this supposition), and that at most it will only stray about ±18℉ (±10℃) from the average.

But what about that wind chill that makes it feel -80℉ (-44.4℃) colder that is apparently caused by 245 mph (394 km/h) sustained wind speeds (which is just shy of the real-world world record for highest wind speed (254 mph (408 km/h) at Barrow Island, Austrailia in 1996)? Yeah, that's gotta go.

So, let's look at blizzards. Since my Google-Fu is strong, I discovered that, to be categorized as a "blizzard" (al least in the US), a snowstorm has to have sustained winds or frequent gusts of 35 mph (56 km/h) or more. A "severe" blizzard has sustained winds/frequent gusts in excess of 45 mph (72 km/h). Let's turn that up a bit and say that the worsts blizzards produced by Auril's Halitosis have 90 mph (145 km/h).

Now, let's take the adventure's temperature average of -49℉ (-45℃), subtract 18℉ (10℃) to determe the coldest it's going to get during this stage of Auril's Escapades, resulting in -67℉ (-55℃). Armed with that and the X-Treme blizzard's 90 mph (145 km/h) winds, we plug the numbers into a wind chill calculator to get a wind chill of -136℉ (-93℃). This is colder than the -129℉ (-90℃) that's in the adventure, but now we've clarified that this is the absolute, most extreme weather that the characters are going to run into. If we stick with book's average of -49℉ (-45℃) and use an "average" blizzard with 35 mph (56 km/h), we get an "average" wind chill of -93℉ (-70℃) during a blizzard.

I spent way too long doing research on this, but I was having fun.

*Look at what they're wearing on the cover of that book, @jasper. This is why it only takes a DC 10 Con save—they're being simulationist to AD&D cover art!

 

[Guest User]

Azzy you don't bring facts to a gripe fight! It kills the fun.

Nearly every country has dozens of churches struggling for control.

Think of them all as being akin to Rome circa 0AD. The churches of the various Gods have a lot of power, but they're still subordinate to the political ruling class.

I lived in India for a bit, (coming by way of California). The religious system in the Forgotten Realms is more akin to Hinduism then anything Occidental.

To me, at least, going back to the original grey box version of the FR, there was a sense that the people shared a common set of Rites, that overlapped with more god specific religious practices. The Temples of the FR, seemed largely independent of each other, there is little in the way of an International Clerical Hierarchy in the FR. Instead, each Temple is it's own power base.

We don't need to cast our gaze to Ancient Rome to find real world examples, we just need to consider over a billion people alive right now, to find some good real world inspiration.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Nearly every country has dozens of churches struggling for control.

Think of them all as being akin to Rome circa 0AD. The churches of the various Gods have a lot of power, but they're still subordinate to the political ruling class.

Okay.

Why? Why do Noble Families matter at all in the setting? Why is there still a political ruling class seperate from the Churches?

Let me explain.


Traditionally, the Nobility of the past held control through three methods. They held the land that the peasants worked to make food. They had the biggest armies. They made the most money. Those were the big things.

But, immediately, the Churches in DnD pose a problem to this.

If we accept that there is a lack of farmland because the Churches use their magic to subsidize crop growth, then the land owner aspect of nobility is contingent upon the Churches. The Nobles can't produce enough food without the aid of the churches.

Well, the Nobles still have their armies right? Except, the other part of the proposed plot-hole filling was that the Armies still exist because the Churches heal the soldiers and keep them alive. Compound that with the Churches of course having Clerics and Paladins who are incredibly fighting forces on their own, and the Nobility is actually the weak link in the military forces.

And, I want to aside, that Churches can overcome this problem even in our world. The Holy Roman Empire was a country run by the Catholic Church. Which is particularly notable considering their is also a dislike of material wealth. Which is not a thing in pretty much any DnD religion.

In fact, Waukeen is the FR Goddess of Wealth and Trade. All of that wealth that Nobles would have? Gathering and distributing that wealth is the entire point of her worship.

Which brings us back to your point, because you phrased it in an interesting way. You keep referring it to as a "struggle" between multiple churches. Do you remember who else struggles for resources and against other equally powerful forces?

Noble Houses.
City-States
Countries.

So, saying that the Nobles would not only rise to power, but hold onto that power, when all of their normal avenues of control are either dependent on the churches, or something the churches can do equally well... I don't see it.

Well, one difference there is that those places didn't actually have multiple real, competing deities. They instead had cartels of quasi-competing priests, all of whom had the shared interest of "religious institutions should have more power", which allowed for a greater degree of cooperation than is available when your very real, actual god is telling you to kick the other god's followers' asses.

Well, yes, but while the gods are competing, they are not in active war wit each other.

And a lot of them are competing for total worshipers, but not types of worshipers. The God of War does not really want the Farmers who worship the Goddess of Agriculture. He wants more soldiers, generals, and the like. So, you could have a stratified society, one where children are pressured to join various churches, and the churches compete, but they still run the country and protect the people. Because you can't have worshipers if everyone is dead.

 

[Guest User]

At 4:59 PM, PST....this thread officially went "Into the Weeds".

 

[Umbran]

These issues are not the end of the world, but they are annoying. With how quickly and easily various posters found solutions to the problem of "how is everyone still alive" and those solutions adding so much more to the premise and giving a DM more to gnaw on, it really makes you think about why none of those solutions were used.

Because, if you don't see it as a problem, you don't use a solution.

If you are writing an adventure in a town, and you don't specifically set any of the game's action in the town's sewer system, do you include a map and description of that sewer system? Probably not. The fact that you've laid out a town which actually has a major water drainage problem may occur to someone who looks at it closely, and they may deduce that really, the entire town should be a small lake, and they'll wonder why you didn't "solve" that problem.

And you'll ask.. why on earth do you give a whit about water drainage?!?

I'm going to guess the following - exactly how the people of the area have been managing in this crisis has little or nothing to do with solving the root problems. The PCs are probably not intended or expected to interact much with whatever the populace has been doing to get by, so there's no adventure design reason to specify it.

 

[Don Durito]

It's interesting how the OP's solutions to his problems with the module make me somewhat curious to check it out, while the efforts of others to defend it to make me feel much more disinterested.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because, if you don't see it as a problem, you don't use a solution.

If you are writing an adventure in a town, and you don't specifically set any of the game's action in the town's sewer system, do you include a map and description of that sewer system? Probably not. The fact that you've laid out a town which actually has a major water drainage problem may occur to someone who looks at it closely, and they may deduce that really, the entire town should be a small lake, and they'll wonder why you didn't "solve" that problem.

And you'll ask.. why on earth do you give a whit about water drainage?!?

I'm going to guess the following - exactly how the people of the area have been managing in this crisis has little or nothing to do with solving the root problems. The PCs are probably not intended or expected to interact much with whatever the populace has been doing to get by, so there's no adventure design reason to specify it.

The problem though, to take your example as a basis, is that the adventure is set with stakes that involve the town collapsing, because of the water drainage.


Sure, if this was an adventure about finding the lost tower of some mage, and the two year long winter was a flavor text aside about the region, then not offering a solution to how they are surviving that crisis is perfectly understandable. But the adventure is about this problem, it is about the water drainage from your example, so lacking details on how the problem has been addressed to date is a fairly major oversight.

I mean, reading the flavor text, if it read "This prolonged winter, which has gone on for more than two years, threatens to doom the flickering lights of civilization known as Ten-Towns as their stores of reserves run dry." Then I would say they gave us an answer. The towns had emergency supplies that have lasted these two years. Implausible? Maybe. But they pointed me in the right direction for why things are desperate now.

But, by adding the bit about "the indigenous flora and fauna that need sunlight and the change of seasons to survive." it immediately brings to question what has been happening up until now. Most plants do not have a three year life cycle, where they need the changing of the seasons, but can go two years without such a change. I mean, plants around here will start dying off if you don't water them for a week or two, let alone multiple months, let alone two years. Many animals struggle to find food in the winter, using the fall to build up fat reserves so they can get through the lean times.

This is something the adventure seems to call specific attention to... but then does not follow through about how things have not already collapsed. And, if you were right, and this was just an aside that had little to do with the plot of the adventure, then it would be a far less perplexing event that they did not think this through. But this is the plot of the adventure. This is the main scenario, not a side note.

 

[Hussar]

It really does seem to be very much a case of folks really, really needing to RTFM. Going by third hand commentary, built on suppositions that don't actually appear in the text is a quick way to dive down an endless rabbit hole.

Has anyone actually CHECKED the module to see if the answers are there?

 

[FitzTheRuke]

It's interesting how the OP's solutions to his problems with the module make me somewhat curious to check it out, while the efforts of others to defend it to make me feel much more disinterested.

How contrary of you!

 

[Flamestrike]

Okay.

Why? Why do Noble Families matter at all in the setting? Why is there still a political ruling class seperate from the Churches?

Let me explain.


Traditionally, the Nobility of the past held control through three methods. They held the land that the peasants worked to make food. They had the biggest armies. They made the most money. Those were the big things.

But, immediately, the Churches in DnD pose a problem to this.

If we accept that there is a lack of farmland because the Churches use their magic to subsidize crop growth, then the land owner aspect of nobility is contingent upon the Churches. The Nobles can't produce enough food without the aid of the churches.

Well, the Nobles still have their armies right? Except, the other part of the proposed plot-hole filling was that the Armies still exist because the Churches heal the soldiers and keep them alive. Compound that with the Churches of course having Clerics and Paladins who are incredibly fighting forces on their own, and the Nobility is actually the weak link in the military forces.

And, I want to aside, that Churches can overcome this problem even in our world. The Holy Roman Empire was a country run by the Catholic Church. Which is particularly notable considering their is also a dislike of material wealth. Which is not a thing in pretty much any DnD religion.

In fact, Waukeen is the FR Goddess of Wealth and Trade. All of that wealth that Nobles would have? Gathering and distributing that wealth is the entire point of her worship.

Which brings us back to your point, because you phrased it in an interesting way. You keep referring it to as a "struggle" between multiple churches. Do you remember who else struggles for resources and against other equally powerful forces?

Noble Houses.
City-States
Countries.

So, saying that the Nobles would not only rise to power, but hold onto that power, when all of their normal avenues of control are either dependent on the churches, or something the churches can do equally well... I don't see it.




Well, yes, but while the gods are competing, they are not in active war wit each other.

And a lot of them are competing for total worshipers, but not types of worshipers. The God of War does not really want the Farmers who worship the Goddess of Agriculture. He wants more soldiers, generals, and the like. So, you could have a stratified society, one where children are pressured to join various churches, and the churches compete, but they still run the country and protect the people. Because you can't have worshipers if everyone is dead.

Im not talking about the Holy Roman Empire (which was united more by the Catholic Church than national polity - it really took until Bismark to unite Germany), im talking about pre Christian Rome.

Monotheistic Europe was beholden to the Holy See. It differs from Faerun in that there are literally hundreds of Gods, all of which have a foothold and substantial following. This prevents any one church from wielding the same influence as (say) Christianity did in Europe or Islam did in the Arabian peninsula.

In polytheistic cultures (pre christian Europe, India pre Islam Arabia etc) while churches and gods have immense influence, you don't see the same kind of political clout that a monotheistic religion that is adhered to by the majority of the population does have

Look at Baldurs Gate. There are termples to Waukeen, Tymora, Umberlee, Gond and others (including secret temples to Bhaal). Valkur, Helm and other gods also have a presence, and thsts before you count the non human Gods (Corellion, Moradin etc) who also have a presence.

The city is governed by wealthy trading families and a mercenary company.

Contrast this with the Zentarim who (leaving aside the Cyric/ Bane schism) are largely united under the latter, with the Church of Bane calling the shots, and all but outlawing the worship of other Gods.

Theyre largely the outlier though. In very few places in Faerun has one diety and its faith come to a position of dominance over society. The polytheistic nature of Fareun religion keeps that from happening.