D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

I think if you read back you’ll see people have responded to your specific criticisms.

Chief of which is the lack of full sunlight. Can I ask where your evidence is that coniferous trees and plant roots buried beneath snow with 4 hours polar twilight a day will die completely within 2 years... not just be dormant? I have posted links to articles demonstrating life can survive for 3-6 months. Is it just your assumptions or do you have actual evidence beyond your own opinion.
In places above 80 latitude, where polar night lasts for months at a time, there aren't really trees. The few plants that are there are able to survive in dormancy, as are the plants and trees around 75 latitude, due to saving up energy from the previous sunlit months.

Here's a link for Polar Ecology, which Icewind Dale would have become after a full year in winter. Polar ecology - Wikipedia
 

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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
In places above 80 latitude, where polar night lasts for months at a time, there aren't really trees. The few plants that are there are able to survive in dormancy, as are the plants and trees around 75 latitude, due to saving up energy from the previous sunlit months.

Here's a link for Polar Ecology, which Icewind Dale would have become after a full year in winter. Polar ecology - Wikipedia

I'd never explicitly thought about a tree line due to latitude before. Thanks for.the link! More at Tree line - Wikipedia
 

DnD Warlord

Adventurer
I think if you read back you’ll see people have responded to your specific criticisms.

Chief of which is the lack of full sunlight. Can I ask where your evidence is that coniferous trees and plant roots buried beneath snow with 4 hours polar twilight a day will die completely within 2 years... not just be dormant? I have posted links to articles demonstrating life can survive for 3-6 months. Is it just your assumptions or do you have actual evidence beyond your own opinion.
I never said any of what you quoted
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I'd never explicitly thought about a tree line due to latitude before. Thanks for.the link! More at Tree line - Wikipedia
Tree lines are usually not light restricted, but temperature. Average summer temps need to be above 5-6 C for even very cold hearty trees. This is actually the theory behind using tree growth rings to try to determine past temperature. The issue with that is that temperature isn't the only factor in tree growth (especially in the varieties of strip-bark trees common at treelines) so the temperature signal is very, very messy resulting in bad resolutions due to error bars. Still, direct observations have pegged the average temp needing to be in the above range.

Light isn't the limit for tree lines because we're talking summertime temps, and summer in the Arctic (or Antarctic) is full of sunlight. On mountains, sunlight is also usually very plentiful during the growing season.

As for @TheSword's question to find scientific study showing trees can't survive -59C average temps with no sunlight if blanketed in snow for two years, it's a fool's errand: that kind of condition doesn't exist anywhere and isn't of much scientific interest because it doesn't exist. I mean, we're talking burying a tree in snow at the South Pole to achieve these conditions, just to confirm that, yep, it dies. We know it dies because trees, even evergreen cold hearty trees, die without sunlight in much less time, and no tree lives at that average year-long temp. The knowledge about plants and light comes, in part, from the Norse, who would shelter evergreens in caves during the winter for up to six months. These would die if left in the cave much more than six months, and temps in the caves, while cold, were far milder than deep winter temps, so it was the light levels that did it.

I'm still struggling with the argument that normal trees should be expected to live with no light and brutal, arctic cold all the time for two years. The cold does in trees at much milder temps even when there's light. Taking away the tree's ability to create food for two years seems a no brainer as to the result, but here we are.
 

For people who think that the trees not dying doesn't matter:

Imagine if the trees WERE dying. What does that do to the TenTowners? What new pressures does that create? How do the druids react to the fact that their goddess is actually killing the world, not sustaining it?

OR FLIP THE SCRIPT!

Go MORE IN DETAIL about the druids. Talk about how they are keeping the trees alive, and indeed the entire ecosystem alive. Make it an adventure! The Frozen Heart of the Boreal Forest or something like that where the players need to convince the terrifying, primal druids that if they don't actually turn against the Frostmaiden, nothing they do will be able to actually save their forest in these conditions.

Then you have the chance to overcome the horror and turn it into a weapon against the duegar or the Frostmaiden; alternatively, the players could fail, and the horror gets worse!

These are the off the cuff in 20 seconds thoughts I had after thinking about what the module could have been like if it didn't decide to handwave this problem. These kinds of cool adventure seeds and ideas spawn only from logically applying the impossible (eternal winter) to the possible (trees would die) and seeing what kind of cool fantasy stories emerge.

This is what I expect when I spend $50 on an adventure. Not what I got. BTW I did buy Frostmaiden, pre-ordered actually, since a lot of people are saying that not buying the module means you can't critique it.
 



TheSword

Legend
Tree lines are usually not light restricted, but temperature. Average summer temps need to be above 5-6 C for even very cold hearty trees. This is actually the theory behind using tree growth rings to try to determine past temperature. The issue with that is that temperature isn't the only factor in tree growth (especially in the varieties of strip-bark trees common at treelines) so the temperature signal is very, very messy resulting in bad resolutions due to error bars. Still, direct observations have pegged the average temp needing to be in the above range.

Light isn't the limit for tree lines because we're talking summertime temps, and summer in the Arctic (or Antarctic) is full of sunlight. On mountains, sunlight is also usually very plentiful during the growing season.

As for @TheSword's question to find scientific study showing trees can't survive -59C average temps with no sunlight if blanketed in snow for two years, it's a fool's errand: that kind of condition doesn't exist anywhere and isn't of much scientific interest because it doesn't exist. I mean, we're talking burying a tree in snow at the South Pole to achieve these conditions, just to confirm that, yep, it dies. We know it dies because trees, even evergreen cold hearty trees, die without sunlight in much less time, and no tree lives at that average year-long temp. The knowledge about plants and light comes, in part, from the Norse, who would shelter evergreens in caves during the winter for up to six months. These would die if left in the cave much more than six months, and temps in the caves, while cold, were far milder than deep winter temps, so it was the light levels that did it.

I'm still struggling with the argument that normal trees should be expected to live with no light and brutal, arctic cold all the time for two years. The cold does in trees at much milder temps even when there's light. Taking away the tree's ability to create food for two years seems a no brainer as to the result, but here we are.
What you’re missing here is the fact that in such situations trees would never grow in the first place. So your claim they would die is purely based on your assumptions. You’re claiming they would all die, however the reality is that you have no evidence for that.

No one is claiming the trees are thriving... just that they’re still there.
 

What you’re missing here is the fact that in such situations trees would never grow in the first place. So your claim they would die is purely based on your assumptions. You’re claiming they would all die, however the reality is that you have no evidence for that.

No one is claiming the trees are thriving... just that they’re still there.
What?
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Tree lines are usually not light restricted, but temperature. Average summer temps need to be above 5-6 C for even very cold hearty trees. This is actually the theory behind using tree growth rings to try to determine past temperature. The issue with that is that temperature isn't the only factor in tree growth (especially in the varieties of strip-bark trees common at treelines) so the temperature signal is very, very messy resulting in bad resolutions due to error bars. Still, direct observations have pegged the average temp needing to be in the above range.

All those trees everywhere in Rankin/Bass Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer movie got me. (I mean, I knew there wasn't solid land... but somehow the trees didn't phase me).
 

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