Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

[Chaosmancer]

Honestly, I don't have much problem with that. There are far, far too many players out there that need to be smacked upside the head with the clue bat before they get the idea of what the DM is going for. And, then you have the players who will deliberately pull the opposite way - the DM tells the group that religion is important in this setting, so everyone plays atheists and heretics.

This may be hamfisted but, at least it gives the DM a decent argument for making faith important in the game. "Look, religion is important in the Realms mmmkay? See, right here, those that don't have a god get stuffed in the Wall. Now, pick a bloody deity and let's get going!"

Completely fair, but it causes such a pain in the neck for those of us who care about this stuff.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

If I want in my story the own AO destroys the faithless wall. Why? It was created to punish the unbelievers and the hypocrites with false devotion, but the Faerunian deities may forgotten a very important lesson: The true loyalty can't be required by means of menaces and punishments, but the true leader makes the maximum effort to earn that loyalty. The mortals aren't to serve the deities but theses are who serve the mortals. It is very dangerous when the powerful ones don't have to worry about suffering the consequences of their actions because others will play for the "broken plates".

And all the sentient souls can remember their previous lives as mortals, until they ascended to the true Heaven, or doomed to the ultimate Hell.

 

[MoonSong]

If I want in my story the own AO destroys the faithless wall. Why? It was created to punish the unbelievers and the hypocrites with false devotion, but the Faerunian deities may forgotten a very important lesson: The true loyalty can't be required by means of menaces and punishments, but the true leader makes the maximum effort to earn that loyalty. The mortals aren't to serve the deities but theses are who serve the mortals. It is very dangerous when the powerful ones don't have to worry about suffering the consequences of their actions because others will play for the "broken plates".

And all the sentient souls can remember their previous lives as mortals, until they ascended to the true Heaven, or doomed to the ultimate Hell.

I prefer the idea of starting a service where the recently deceased are subject to soul bind, then we travel to another world away from the influence of Ao, and release the soul there so it can go to its proper alignment plane without intervention from Kelemvor or anybody else.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Honestly, I don't have much problem with that. There are far, far too many players out there that need to be smacked upside the head with the clue bat before they get the idea of what the DM is going for. And, then you have the players who will deliberately pull the opposite way - the DM tells the group that religion is important in this setting, so everyone plays atheists and heretics.

This may be hamfisted but, at least it gives the DM a decent argument for making faith important in the game. "Look, religion is important in the Realms mmmkay? See, right here, those that don't have a god get stuffed in the Wall. Now, pick a bloody deity and let's get going!"

Sounds like the kind of DMing that everyone I know avoids like the plague.

If the players don’t want to care about faith in a game, trying to force them to is...bad.
Even if I stayed in that game, I’d be playing the one guy who believes the gods are all evil and need to be destroyed.

 

[nevin]

The gods are modeled after old pantheons. It's no different than getting to the river styx without your two pieces of silver and being trapped on that side of the river for all eternity because you were too poor to be buried with passage money. And in the Forgotten realms the gods represent all the alignments and AO is true neutral. Most of the gods aren't good they are nuetral and evil. The good gods may not be happy with the wall but I doubt they are going to risk thier power or followers to save the stupid souls who end up there. And I say stupid because you end up there if you don't believe in the gods. Not if you don't worship them, if you don't believe in them, in a world where you can go get healed at by your local cleric and people are raised from the dead, and clerics disintegrate undead by calling on the power of the gods. It sounds like you are trying to turn the Forgotten realms gods into the celestial hierachy or christianity but they are modeled after, old Greek, sumerian and bablylonian myths. Those gods were usually not friends of humanity. Humanity just lived in their world and sometimes caught their attention. Not doing what they said was usually disastrous for the offender. Doing what they said was often disastrous for the believer as well. In first edition forgotten realms they gods powers had nothing to do with worshipers. Which I always thought was more in line with fantasy.

If I were going to make such a change in Forgotten Realm lore , I'd institute some method of difficult but potential salvation for those souls instituted by some power who just couldn't stand the horror of being forever doomed with no way out.

Or maybe the realm of the dead gets attacked and they need armies to fight off thier enemies, so the God of the Dead changes the rules.

Or go old school, In the orginal Forgotten realms the wall would be periodically attacked by other planes who would take the souls they freed back to their planes. It could just be that the wall is that place where random fate decides where in the universe non believers end up as they have no god that cares what happens to them. that would be a really minor change. the souls don't dissolve they just wait for some other plane to free them and put them to work.

 

[Mecheon]

Even if I stayed in that game, I’d be playing the one guy who believes the gods are all evil and need to be destroyed.

Kill the gods and shatter their thrones.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not if you don't worship them, if you don't believe in them, in a world where you can go get healed at by your local cleric and people are raised from the dead, and clerics disintegrate undead by calling on the power of the gods.

Nope. It’s specifically if you refuse to serve them. If you never pray to them, make offerings, etc. belief in them isn’t what they get power from, it’s worship.

If you believe that they are psychotic tyrants that do not deserve worship or service, you go in the wall.

 

[Hussar]

Sounds like the kind of DMing that everyone I know avoids like the plague.

If the players don’t want to care about faith in a game, trying to force them to is...bad.
Even if I stayed in that game, I’d be playing the one guy who believes the gods are all evil and need to be destroyed.

Fair enough I suppose. To me, these sound like players who deliberately sabotage games because they can't be bothered buying into the DM's campaign. If you don't care about faith, why are you playing in a game about faith? I'd MUCH prefer players who simply said, "Sorry, this isn't for me" and gave up their seat for someone who actually wants to play the game I'm serving, rather than play under protest and then deliberately sabotage the game. You aren't interest? Not a problem. There are tons of other games out there, or, you run a game. But, those players who aren't interested in the campaign but, still show up to play are the worst players out there. They suck all the joy out of the game.

Or, to put it another way, why are you playing in a game you know you don't like?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Fair enough I suppose. To me, these sound like players who deliberately sabotage games because they can't be bothered buying into the DM's campaign. If you don't care about faith, why are you playing in a game about faith? I'd MUCH prefer players who simply said, "Sorry, this isn't for me" and gave up their seat for someone who actually wants to play the game I'm serving, rather than play under protest and then deliberately sabotage the game. You aren't interest? Not a problem. There are tons of other games out there, or, you run a game. But, those players who aren't interested in the campaign but, still show up to play are the worst players out there. They suck all the joy out of the game.

Or, to put it another way, why are you playing in a game you know you don't like?

But, let us ask a separate question as well.

Why did we make an entire setting where the gods were not only important, but the player was punished for not worshiping them?

Look at Theros as a counter-example.

Are the Gods in Theros important? Yes, religion plays a massive role in that setting

What happens if you deny the gods? You get different bonuses

Because denying the Gods is an equally valid approach to a setting where they are so integral. In Theros, there is an inter-play between the faithful and those who deny the gods. It is important to the setting and both paths are valid.

In Faerun, if you deny the gods then the only thing that happens is that when you die you are told your soul is tormented then destroyed in a horrific manner.

One of these options is objectively better than the other.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Fair enough I suppose. To me, these sound like players who deliberately sabotage games because they can't be bothered buying into the DM's campaign. If you don't care about faith, why are you playing in a game about faith? I'd MUCH prefer players who simply said, "Sorry, this isn't for me" and gave up their seat for someone who actually wants to play the game I'm serving, rather than play under protest and then deliberately sabotage the game. You aren't interest? Not a problem. There are tons of other games out there, or, you run a game. But, those players who aren't interested in the campaign but, still show up to play are the worst players out there. They suck all the joy out of the game.

Or, to put it another way, why are you playing in a game you know you don't like?

That isn’t the scenario you presented. FR games aren’t generally about faith, so assuming it will be about faith because it’s an FR game is unreasonable.

Further, the only scenario IME in which a DM would ever try to browbeat another player into taking a premise of the campaign seriously is a game wherein that premise wasn’t made clear in session 0, but rather foisted upon the group after we began.