D&D 5E Corellon, the Elven Schism and Manichaeism

[TheAlkaizer]

So, lately I've been slowly digging through the Elven section of the Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. I've honestly never really been really into elves, but I was pleasantly surprised by some of the cool ideas described in the book. I'll come back to this.

I tend not to be really fond of fiction that's very Manichean. I rarely like white or black characters and I prefer grey characters. A villain whose motives you can understand, a mentor whose philosophy goes a little bit too far for you, etc. My DMing style reflects this and even though I also have my share of unidimensional characters or factions, I often try to lure my players in to have them discover a situation or character that's much more nuanced than it seemed. I like my characters having a moment where they're unsure of what's the right call.

Back to Mordenkainen's. The opening paragraphs about Lolth's betrayal and all that jazz really depicted her and the drow as the bad guys. But I also felt a hint of something about Corellon. Maybe it's me reading into it, but I had a feeling the author wanted us to feel like Corellon was maybe not so just in his adamant justice and judgment. It made me wonder how cool it would be to rework or add to this part of 5th edition's content to maybe make the whole thing a little bit greyer.

Some of the things that Lolth did seem unforgivable. But literature already uses the mechanism of unreliable narrator or of varying point of views so much, this seem like a great situation to do so.

Some examples:

• Lolth sneakily tries to end Corellon when he faces her for leading the Primal Elves astray. I immediately thought of the Luke Skywalker/Kylo Ren that they toyed so much with in Star Wars' new trilogy (which I hate). In my opinion, his was one of the few interesting element they brought. Very simple changes, or a change in perspective greatly affects how the events are perceived.
• The book also depicts Lolth philosophy as abandoning some individual freedoms to achieve greatness as a group. So, logically would Corellon advocate for the opposite? Individual freedom at all cost? If so, it seems a bit contradictory to advocate for that and then resent your children for choosing a different path. I would totally explore this fallacy to maybe suggest to my players that even though he's a Greater Deity, Corellon might be wrong and unjust in this.

I'm curious if anyone else toyed with this idea of making this conflict in the history of the elves less Manichean, or maybe make the drow and Lolth seem a little less despicable and relatable. Or maybe if anyone attempted to do something like that with other parts of D&D lore?

 

[MNblockhead]

In my first campaign for 5e, Mordenkainen's was not out yet. But in my campaign world the high elvan magitocracies fought a series of wars that lead to human and dwarven kingdoms banding together to completely annhilate the elvan kingdoms, resorting to genocide. Most of the elves retreated from the continent and across the ocean. Some elves retreated into the wildest of woods and the most desolate deserts. One group retreated to underdark.

In my campaign, the drow were not yet fully transformed. Generations hiding underground had made them very light skinned and their darkvision was greatly improved. There was still some diversity of religion. Power was already consolidating in great houses. Different houses were were pratrons of different religions. Some clinging to traditional high-elvan gods (based on Forgotten Realms pantheon). Some turned to the arch-fey. Some followed more esoteric practices. Once of the fastest growning and strongest faiths was to lolth. She was an arch-fey in control of the great garden maze between the summer and winter courts. In the elvan refugees hidden below, she found those willing to worship her and power her desire to ascend to god hood.

The iconography is explained as the thread that bind the community together, that communicates warning of outsiders moving in their communities. Also it represents the weave of magic. Also, patience. Waiting for enemies and opportunities to get tangled into the webs you wove.

I strove to make the drow sympathetic and come up with a reason why elves would follow lloth.

While I like Mordenkainen's lore, it paints her in a very Luciferian light. I think it is possible to keep to the canon as presented in Mordenkainen's but make the drow less like caricatures. I see them as more like matriarchial spartans.

 

[TwiceBorn2]

I view the stories about gods and their conflicts presented in D&D sourcebooks as nothing more than mythologies that various peoples cling to in order to explain their own collective place in the world, including historical enmities with other peoples/races/cultures (i.e., justifications for their prejudices and the various "isms" they cling to). Those mythologies in turn serve as the foundations for their moral codes.

As in the real world, there are many who like to think they know the will of (the) god(s), their own role in the divine plan, and who justify their actions (right and wrong) based on how they interpret a holy text or the will of a god. I tend to think that mortal attribution of divine motives does not necessarily correspond to actual divine motives. Who can truly know the mind of a god?

The above might deviate from the official cosmology (and the foundations of classes like the cleric and the relationships between alignment, the planes, gods and their divine servants), but that's how I tend to view religion even in fantasy RPGs. I'm not inclined to let PCs meet divine beings... that takes away too much of their mystique. So all they are ever left with are stories, faith, varied interpretations by those who claim to be wise and holy, and fleeting experiences (i.e., divine messages) that may seem confusing or contradictory... all of which make schisms within all faiths the norm, not the exception.

All real world cultures seem to cling to an idealized golden age that never truly was (i.e., they gloss over the horrors and lies of that "golden age"). And so it goes for my games. It is my understanding that this is how religion in Eberron works, though I have never laid eyes on an Eberron sourcebook or adventure.

 

[Bupp]

There is an old RPG.net thread that speaks to this.

[2e, Planescape, Nonsense] Corellon Larethian Must Be Stopped | Dungeons & Dragons / Fantasy D20 Spotlight

So this came up in Dorchadas's Let's Read of Drow of the Underdark and I didn't want to drop a tremendous off-topic post in that thread. In short, Corellon Larethian is engaged in a scheme designed to elevate himself to over-power status. To this end he has manipulated the giants, the orcs...

forum.rpg.net

I've used this in my homebrew world of Eska.

I've actually tinkered with the drow a lot on Eska, the main mega-war that led to the current post-apocalypse (The Kinslayer War) was the drow schism. The transformation from Araushnee into Lloth has not happened, and I've reskinned the drow as Dathomirians from Star Wars.

 

[SehanineMoonbow]

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes actually changed a lot of elf and drow lore that had otherwise been fairly consistent. The whole primal elf thing, how/why Lolth betrayed Corellon, and the elves being denied permanent residence in Arvandor, plus the whole cutting out the tongue thing with Vhaeraun, are all things that were hitherto not a part of elf and drow lore (MToF also paints drow as kind of soulless). The only thing that MToF really kept was the gender fluidity of the Seldarine and that the elves sprang from Corellon's blood in his fight with Gruumsh. Even if it is an unreliable narrator, the changes seemed pretty random to me, even if some of it was poetic, considering beforehand the lore had been fairly consistent. I've gone into extensive rants about MToF lol.

 

[Weiley31]

I know in my 5E games, I stick to the usual Drow=Chaotic Evil. Although I do stress that Lolth is literally responsible for that because.....well....Lolth is gonna Lolth. Plus some of Lolth's issues with Corellon has a mix of a bunch of stuff from 3.0/3.5 and 4E. She's still bitter at the fact that Corellon gave the Raven Queen the Portfolio of Fate and for the fact that the Raven Queen did side with Corellon in that bickering. (But lets not overlook that Corellon *did use the Raven Queen to take out that hit on Nerull, so Corellon is just paying lip service/returning the favor to save face. Which Lolth totally calls BULL on, but Corellon's gonna Corellon Larethian).

I will admit, I do like the idea of how Baldur's Gate III actually gives the Drow two "subraces" when creating a Drow PC: Loth-Bound and Seldarine. Yes we all roll our eyes at every Drow PC that came about because of Drizzit, but the guy started a new kind of Schism: But instead of it being between the Elves of Corellon and Lolth, it's now among the Drow themselves. So those Drow PCs? They are stories that a bunch of people, gathered together stringing tales and rumors, talking about how there are more Drow, like Drizzit, suddenly popping up on the surface. And it's happening more and more. To the point where they are starting to appear.

So now the Forgotten Realms is getting used to this fact. The Seldarine Drow themselves are now trying to experience a whole new view of the world that isn't tainted by Lolth. So when a Seldarine Drow comes across a Drow they don't know or recognize, I have it where they'll ask each other what their affiliation is. And the Seldarine Drow state that they are what they are: Seldarine.

One of the biggest and shocking things to happen since the Seldarine Drow appeared on the scene? Parasols are now in high demand, and sales are high, because now you have Drow walking around on the surface carrying Parasols to help their Sunlight Sensitivity. So a number of shops and artificers are crafting Parasols. Goggles are another option but Artificer prices for those are high, so most Drow opt for the Parasol. We even have Combat Parasols being made for Drow, so it's not uncommon to see a Seldarine Drow Bladesinger using a weaponized Parasol as a chosen Bladesinger weapon. Or for a Seldarine Drow Gunslinger to be using a Gun Umbrella.

The Tel'Quessir don't know what to quite make of it either. Corellon hasn't been vocal on the matter but instead seems to be more distant bout it when asked. The Lolth-Bound Drow clerics can't get an answer from Lolth either because the whole "Silence of Lolth" is happening, which is about the "worst timing" EVER for a Drow Schism.

And I have a NPC Bladesinger whose losing his hits over the fact that another NPC, a Drow, became a Bladesinger and is wielding a weapon that goes completely against the Bladesinging tradition(Combat Parasol).


Who knows if another Schism will overshadow this one.

 

[Shardstone]

Mordekainen elf lore is the best elf lore official D&D has ever had. They are all constantly reincarnating divine blood droplets trying to free themselves from their past mistake of becoming too attached to a form and plane so that they can once again experience true happiness and freedom. Alongside this, they grow up slowly because they are blighted by their own past memories, and only once they reach adulthood are they able to actually make new memories. Then, as they age, they begin to be sucked into their past memories again, and rooted to their old lives they "leave" this world and die.

Its such a cool twist on Buddhism for fantasy and its a big shame people don't talk about or use it more.

 

[Bitbrain]

In my homebrew “meta-setting”, Corellon was a primordial who was killed by the god Gruumsh during the Dawn War.

Elves arose from Corellon’s blood, but the drow are simply one of the four original elven ethnic groups.

As for Lolth, she has nothing to do with their actual origin, and is only worshipped by drow on Toril.

It’s the same phenomena observed on Eberron, where the drow believe they were created by Emperor Cul’sir.

 

[Mercurius]

In the real world there are no all-evil groups of people, no matter how evil the overarching ideology is. Yet there are ideologies that act as "evil viruses" and, of course, individuals who embody that malevolence more than others.

I can imagine a drow campaign in which the PCs are good or neutral drow who realize how evil their society is, and seek to transform it by overthrowing the evil leaders. It could be a variant on a scifi dystopia, with each PC having a guide or elder in their background who secretly stashed old elvish lore of the time before the Lolth cult took over.

As for the dualistic nature of elvish lore, it really depends upon how you want to play your campaign. Fantasy literature is traditionally rather black and white, with good vs. evil, light vs. dark, etc. It is a mythic expression of archetypes, and thus meant to be more simplistic than the messiness of real life. Lots of folks like those assumptions, not least of which because it provides an escape from the complexity of real life, where things aren't so clear-cut.

On the other hand, fantasy literature also has--especially in recent years--plenty examples of "shades of gray" morality, be it George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, Jacqueline Carey's The Sundering, etc.

You could also plan a reversal for your group: start with the basic template of good vs. evil, perhaps an adventure with the drow as the villain, and then the PCs realize that the drow aren't so villainous after all, and the elves guard a dirty secret in their history.

 

[TheAlkaizer]

I view the stories about gods and their conflicts presented in D&D sourcebooks as nothing more than mythologies that various peoples cling to in order to explain their own collective place in the world, including historical enmities with other peoples/races/cultures (i.e., justifications for their prejudices and the various "isms" they cling to). Those mythologies in turn serve as the foundations for their moral codes.

As in the real world, there are many who like to think they know the will of (the) god(s), their own role in the divine plan, and who justify their actions (right and wrong) based on how they interpret a holy text or the will of a god. I tend to think that mortal attribution of divine motives does not necessarily correspond to actual divine motives. Who can truly know the mind of a god?

I love this approach and it is very close of what I was trying to describe when talking about an unreliable narrator. Just like how propaganda is used to paint the others as evil but it is ultimately a matter of perspective.

There is an old RPG.net thread that speaks to this.

[2e, Planescape, Nonsense] Corellon Larethian Must Be Stopped | Dungeons & Dragons / Fantasy D20 Spotlight

So this came up in Dorchadas's Let's Read of Drow of the Underdark and I didn't want to drop a tremendous off-topic post in that thread. In short, Corellon Larethian is engaged in a scheme designed to elevate himself to over-power status. To this end he has manipulated the giants, the orcs...

forum.rpg.net

I've used this in my homebrew world of Eska.

I've actually tinkered with the drow a lot on Eska, the main mega-war that led to the current post-apocalypse (The Kinslayer War) was the drow schism. The transformation from Araushnee into Lloth has not happened, and I've reskinned the drow as Dathomirians from Star Wars.

That thread was interesting! Thank you!

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes actually changed a lot of elf and drow lore that had otherwise been fairly consistent. The whole primal elf thing, how/why Lolth betrayed Corellon, and the elves being denied permanent residence in Arvandor, plus the whole cutting out the tongue thing with Vhaeraun, are all things that were hitherto not a part of elf and drow lore (MToF also paints drow as kind of soulless). The only thing that MToF really kept was the gender fluidity of the Seldarine and that the elves sprang from Corellon's blood in his fight with Gruumsh. Even if it is an unreliable narrator, the changes seemed pretty random to me, even if some of it was poetic, considering beforehand the lore had been fairly consistent. I've gone into extensive rants about MToF lol.

To be honest, I have little interest in the official settings of D&D and barely dived into lore during 3rd and 4th edition. So I don't have your perspective. But I really like what I've read so far in 5th edition books, including MToF.

Mordekainen elf lore is the best elf lore official D&D has ever had. They are all constantly reincarnating divine blood droplets trying to free themselves from their past mistake of becoming too attached to a form and plane so that they can once again experience true happiness and freedom. Alongside this, they grow up slowly because they are blighted by their own past memories, and only once they reach adulthood are they able to actually make new memories. Then, as they age, they begin to be sucked into their past memories again, and rooted to their old lives they "leave" this world and die.

Its such a cool twist on Buddhism for fantasy and its a big shame people don't talk about or use it more.

I know! I'm really impressed by it. It's not too complicated to understand and has a certain poetry to it. I'm excited to read into the other origins. But I know that I want to adapt its content to make it grayer.

In my homebrew “meta-setting”, Corellon was a primordial who was killed by the god Gruumsh during the Dawn War.

Elves arose from Corellon’s blood, but the drow are simply one of the four original elven ethnic groups.

As for Lolth, she has nothing to do with their actual origin, and is only worshipped by drow on Toril.

It’s the same phenomena observed on Eberron, where the drow believe they were created by Emperor Cul’sir.

Interesting. However, I want to keep Lolth involved. I'd just like to tweak her motive and backstory enough so that she's not an entirely evil character and that player could understand (without agreeing) her motivations. I've already got plenty of purely evil figures with Vecna, Orcus, etc.

In the real world there are no all-evil groups of people, no matter how evil the overarching ideology is. Yet there are ideologies that act as "evil viruses" and, of course, individuals who embody that malevolence more than others.

I can imagine a drow campaign in which the PCs are good or neutral drow who realize how evil their society is, and seek to transform it by overthrowing the evil leaders. It could be a variant on a scifi dystopia, with each PC having a guide or elder in their background who secretly stashed old elvish lore of the time before the Lolth cult took over.

As for the dualistic nature of elvish lore, it really depends upon how you want to play your campaign. Fantasy literature is traditionally rather black and white, with good vs. evil, light vs. dark, etc. It is a mythic expression of archetypes, and thus meant to be more simplistic than the messiness of real life. Lots of folks like those assumptions, not least of which because it provides an escape from the complexity of real life, where things aren't so clear-cut.

On the other hand, fantasy literature also has--especially in recent years--plenty examples of "shades of gray" morality, be it George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, Jacqueline Carey's The Sundering, etc.

You could also plan a reversal for your group: start with the basic template of good vs. evil, perhaps an adventure with the drow as the villain, and then the PCs realize that the drow aren't so villainous after all, and the elves guard a dirty secret in their history.

George RR Martin is a great example of what I was describing. It's also a work of literature that uses the point of views extensively to show the reader different sides of the same coin. In all honesty, I have no plan to dive into all this (Lolth, Corellon) is my next campaign, but I'm slowly building myself a bible of lore and adapting it little by little. And the prevalent Manichaeism is one of my issues that I'm attempting to tweak.