Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

[Dire Bare]

So, a mortal can become a god, of the gods allow it.

Or if they kill the god in the vein of Cyric or Finder wyvernspur

Or by kiling enough demons like Gargauth

Or by winning a challenge against a god like Valkur

And of course we have Savras who we don't know why they ascended, same with Torm, and Kiaransalee, and Deep Duerra and Elikarashae


You know for beings that mortals are supposed to worship without question, it is kind of strange how there are between 20 and 30 gods who were once mortals themselves. Makes you wonder how many of them were mortal at one point.

To be fair . . . mortals ascending to godhood is somewhat of a thing in some real-world mythologies as well . . . the holiday of Easter comes to mind . . .

To me, the origin of a deity as a mortal or not has no impact on whether it is "right" to worship deities . . .

And believing in the existence of these powerful beings also does not require their worship . . . one can believe they are gods, but not worthy of veneration . . . or one can believe the idea of "gods" is silly, these beings are just on a higher level of power than your average archmage . . . one could even believe these gods don't exist at all, after all "I haven't seen one!"

The idea that my Realmsian character can't be an atheist or "faithless" without somehow breaking the theme of a Realms campaign, or by ignoring Realms canon is supremely silly to me.

 

[Zardnaar]

To be fair . . . mortals ascending to godhood is somewhat of a thing in some real-world mythologies as well . . . the holiday of Easter comes to mind . . .

To me, the origin of a deity as a mortal or not has no impact on whether it is "right" to worship deities . . .

And believing in the existence of these powerful beings also does not require their worship . . . one can believe they are gods, but not worthy of veneration . . . or one can believe the idea of "gods" is silly, these beings are just on a higher level of power than your average archmage . . . one could even believe these gods don't exist at all, after all "I haven't seen one!"

The idea that my Realmsian character can't be an atheist or "faithless" without somehow breaking the theme of a Realms campaign, or by ignoring Realms canon is supremely silly to me.

I would let you do it but it might be an issue with raise dead.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yet the gods decide your fate in the afterlife. Don't follow one yeah they gave no incentive to collect your soul.

You don't have to follow one that's on your head along with the consequences.

Right, they can threaten my characters soul. Worship me or suffer.

Unless I end up getting my soul claimed by something other than the gods. Which, sounds pretty good, doesn't it. Better to go and approach someone on my terms, then deal with bullies who require my worship on pain of oblivion.

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To be fair . . . mortals ascending to godhood is somewhat of a thing in some real-world mythologies as well . . . the holiday of Easter comes to mind . . .

To me, the origin of a deity as a mortal or not has no impact on whether it is "right" to worship deities . . .

And believing in the existence of these powerful beings also does not require their worship . . . one can believe they are gods, but not worthy of veneration . . . or one can believe the idea of "gods" is silly, these beings are just on a higher level of power than your average archmage . . . one could even believe these gods don't exist at all, after all "I haven't seen one!"

The idea that my Realmsian character can't be an atheist or "faithless" without somehow breaking the theme of a Realms campaign, or by ignoring Realms canon is supremely silly to me.

I agree, but there are a few points.

First is that, I was told in this thread, the Faithless are not only those who do not believe in the gods, but also include those who do not worship the gods. So, believe they are not worthy of veneration? Wall.


Secondly, I do have reasons in my own setting about why the gods exist, why they are worshiped and what it all means. And, one of the big things is, they do not coerce their followers. They do not say "worship me or I will punish you" That is my biggest problem with this wall.

And, when we started digging into a claim that "athiests" in the Realms might believe the gods are not worthy of worship, there were claims that they must because they are the gods, and the gods are above mortals. But, of mortals can become gods... how far above mortals are the gods actually? That was my point.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

To be fair . . . mortals ascending to godhood is somewhat of a thing in some real-world mythologies as well . . . the holiday of Easter comes to mind . . .

To me, the origin of a deity as a mortal or not has no impact on whether it is "right" to worship deities . . .

And believing in the existence of these powerful beings also does not require their worship . . . one can believe they are gods, but not worthy of veneration . . . or one can believe the idea of "gods" is silly, these beings are just on a higher level of power than your average archmage . . . one could even believe these gods don't exist at all, after all "I haven't seen one!"

The idea that my Realmsian character can't be an atheist or "faithless" without somehow breaking the theme of a Realms campaign, or by ignoring Realms canon is supremely silly to me.

What aspect of Easter has anything to do with mortals ascending to godhood?

 

[QuentinGeorge]

To me the Wall of the Faithless is yet another artifact of writers who have grown up in secular and monotheistic societies trying to imagine how a polytheistic religion would work. No polytheism had a punishment for atheists. Because the very idea of atheism didn't exist. Most didn't even have the concept of a judgement day, or a moralistic view of the afterlife. You died, and you went the place dead people went, whether you were good or bad. If a god wanted to punish you, he'd do it to you while you were alive - with a bolt of lightning, or by killing your family or giving you leprosy.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Asmodeus isn't omnipotent, can grant spells "perform miracles" (whatever that means) and punish you in the after life. And he is real.
/snip

Note, bad example. Asmodeus IS a god now.

/snip

You know for beings that mortals are supposed to worship without question, it is kind of strange how there are between 20 and 30 gods who were once mortals themselves. Makes you wonder how many of them were mortal at one point.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who said that mortals are supposed to worship without question? That's never been said or even implied. You certain can question the gods. What you can't do is deny that they exist, for your entire life, and then expect to get a ride into whatever afterlife suits your temperament.

And, @QuentinGeorge wins the thread for having exactly the right answer here. The reason you don't have an atheist character is because they simply don't exist.

 

[Olrox17]

I remember reading that, at some point, Kelemvor tried to do away with the wall, making the realm of the dead a more welcoming place.

Apparently that got him a lot of angry mail from the other gods and possibly Ao itself, because mortals started relying on Kelemvor’s benevolence and the more and more people became faithless.

In FR, the power of gods is (by Ao’s decree) proportional to the number of their worshippers, so you can see how that can be a problem for them.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I remember reading that, at some point, Kelemvor tried to do away with the wall, making the realm of the dead a more welcoming place.

Apparently that got him a lot of angry mail from the other gods and possibly Ao itself, because mortals started relying on Kelemvor’s benevolence and the more and more people became faithless.

In FR, the power of gods is (by Ao’s decree) proportional to the number of their worshippers, so you can see how that can be a problem for them.

Yeah I'm not sure if I really like the whole take of "gods need prayer badly". It reduces them to video game characters trying to up their mana bar.

 

[Olrox17]

Yeah I'm not sure if I really like the whole take of "gods need prayer badly". It reduces them to video game characters trying to up their mana bar.

According to my 3d edition FR setting book:
"The close to the Avatar Crisis (aka the time of troubles) brought a change to the way the deities of Faerun relate to their followers. By Ao's decree, a deity's power is in part derived from the number and fervor of his worshipers, and so deities can no longer afford to ignore their faithful".

So yeah, like it or not, FR gods are immensely powerful prayer vampires that can be starved by lack of worship.
In this context, the continued existence of something like the wall, even after the death of the sadistic deity that originally created it, makes sense.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Note, bad example. Asmodeus IS a god now.


Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who said that mortals are supposed to worship without question? That's never been said or even implied. You certain can question the gods. What you can't do is deny that they exist, for your entire life, and then expect to get a ride into whatever afterlife suits your temperament.

And, @QuentinGeorge wins the thread for having exactly the right answer here. The reason you don't have an atheist character is because they simply don't exist.

Except we know they do exist, in numbers great enough to make a cosmic wall out of.