Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

Chaosmancer

Legend
Note, bad example. Asmodeus IS a god now.

Is he? I thought he was back to not being a god.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Who said that mortals are supposed to worship without question? That's never been said or even implied. You certain can question the gods. What you can't do is deny that they exist, for your entire life, and then expect to get a ride into whatever afterlife suits your temperament.

And, @QuentinGeorge wins the thread for having exactly the right answer here. The reason you don't have an atheist character is because they simply don't exist.

Okay, maybe I was being a little hyperbolic. You can question them... as long as you worship them.

Because, again, according to information in this thread, believing they exist and not worshipping them is what gets you in the wall. Oh, and you can't worship them without meaning it either, because then you are False, and either end up Walled or tortured by Devils in Kelemvor's realm.

So, you can question them, as long as that doesn't lead to you worshipping them without meaning it. So really, might be safer if you don't actually question the God you are worshipping, just in case.

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Except we know they do exist, in numbers great enough to make a cosmic wall out of.

A wall made out of souls, where the souls are eventually destroyed and cease to exist.

So either the wall is constantly crumbling or the soul is turned into something else, so that the wall can actually grow instead of shrink.
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
A wall made out of souls, where the souls are eventually destroyed and cease to exist.

So either the wall is constantly crumbling or the soul is turned into something else, so that the wall can actually grow instead of shrink.
The souls turn into building material, IIRC.
 

Gadget

Adventurer
In the vein that they view the Cataclysm that the gods sent to the mortal world for Istar's corruption as justified to some extent...

But the number of Wall/Cataclysm defenders I know of can be counted on one hand. And I've been on quite the number of forums.

Has anyone here encountered such defenders? What was their reasoning?

And if any posters happen to be such defenders, I wouldn't mind hearing your rationales.
I think scratching the religious/philosophical underpinnings of any of the D&D settings/multi-universe would reveal problems that do not hold up well to any time of scrutiny, but I'm not sure if that is what the OP is asking. Any of the numerous discussions/arguments on I certainly don't have a problem with Dragonlance's Cataclysm; or at least no more than of the other D&D moral semi-religious ethos. It has a real worldish, slightly Old Testamentish vibe that sets a nice backdrop for the world. The people became corrupt, pulled the world out of Balance, and the so-called 'gods' of the setting sent down a fiery mountain to adjust and punish them, thereby creating the setting for the story.

From what I gather of the OP, they think that was a very jerkish move on the part of Paladine et. al to pull, causing all that suffering and destruction. Especially for a so-called 'Lawful Good' type. It basically boils down to a variation of the age old philosophical argument/question of "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?" Which religion has been dealing with, in one form or another, for ages. There's a guy over here named Job that really went the rounds on that one. Basically, it boils down to the fact that God, or 'gods' see much more and further than mortals do, this mortal life is not really the some total of existence for us. There is more beyond, which is something we have to accept on, well, faith.

As far as the Wall of the Faithless in FR, I really can't say, as the underpinnings of that campaign setting never really interested me that much.
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
I think scratching the religious/philosophical underpinnings of any of the D&D settings/multi-universe would reveal problems that do not hold up well to any time of scrutiny, but I'm not sure if that is what the OP is asking. Any of the numerous discussions/arguments on I certainly don't have a problem with Dragonlance's Cataclysm; or at least no more than of the other D&D moral semi-religious ethos. It has a real worldish, slightly Old Testamentish vibe that sets a nice backdrop for the world. The people became corrupt, pulled the world out of Balance, and the so-called 'gods' of the setting sent down a fiery mountain to adjust and punish them, thereby creating the setting for the story.

From what I gather of the OP, they think that was a very jerkish move on the part of Paladine et. al to pull, causing all that suffering and destruction. Especially for a so-called 'Lawful Good' type. It basically boils down to a variation of the age old philosophical argument/question of "Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?" Which religion has been dealing with, in one form or another, for ages. There's a guy over here named Job that really went the rounds on that one. Basically, it boils down to the fact that God, or 'gods' see much more and further than mortals do, this mortal life is not really the some total of existence for us. There is more beyond, which is something we have to accept on, well, faith.

As far as the Wall of the Faithless in FR, I really can't say, as the underpinnings of that campaign setting never really interested me that much.


I have a problem with this line of thought, especially in the context of DnD.

DnD is a game, and I as the DM have to know the answers to the big questions of the setting. If there is a reason for something, I need to be the person who knows the reason.

"No one is allowed into the Catcombs beneath the castle" is something I can tell my players, and they don't have to know why, they can just assume it is for good reason. But, as the DM, I need to know why. Because some NPCs need to know why. If there is a Demon Lord in those Catacombs, then I need to know it exists, or I can't run the game properly. And if it is sealed, I need to know how to break that seal, because that is a goal of some of the antagonists.


So, as the DM, if I have the Wall of the Faithless.... I need to know why it exists. Because saying that the "gods see much more than I do" when I determine what those gods see in the first place, is nonsense.

And, if a player came to me after their character found out about the wall, and asked me if there was a reason for it, and my answer was "No, it is only there to make the Faithless suffer for their lack of worship" then that player suddenly has a problem. Their cleric, who might be kind and merciful, now either much reject the gods who approve of such torture, or come to the conclusion that people who commit a high enough crime, like being Apostates, deserve torturous punishment.

Either way, this could ruin a character. And sure, maybe the character could just take it on faith, but the player now knows that their character is deluding themselves. Which is also a problem.


So, the solution would be to not tell the players, but then... what is the point of a setting element that no one ever sees, hears about, or interacts with.

And, this isn't a case where a canonical answer does not exist, one does exist. The gods want to make the Faithless suffer for their lack of worship. That is the reason, canonically, that the wall exists.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
A bit of pedantry, Asmodeus, the other archdevils, and the demon lords were considered lesser gods since 1e's Dieties & Demigods.
At least until 2e when they weren't, except for Asmodeus depending on which sourcebooks you had access to.
 

Iry

Hero
Their cleric, who might be kind and merciful, now either much reject the gods who approve of such torture, or come to the conclusion that people who commit a high enough crime, like being Apostates, deserve torturous punishment.
Sadly, we don't know enough about the true purpose of the wall to make a real judgement. Since the gods only have a finite amount of good deeds before a Tribunal makes them stop, it might not be worth it to fix. How a cleric judges that, if they even know the truth, is going to be a very personal question.
 

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
At least until 2e when they weren't, except for Asmodeus depending on which sourcebooks you had access to.
Yeah, 2e was weird. Then again, it took out all the archdevils/demon lords until later in the run with Planescape. I was never interested in Planescape, so I have no idea what happened to them then.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Sadly, we don't know enough about the true purpose of the wall to make a real judgement. Since the gods only have a finite amount of good deeds before a Tribunal makes them stop, it might not be worth it to fix. How a cleric judges that, if they even know the truth, is going to be a very personal question.

And that is a problem. The earliest source for the wall I can see was '93, so we are talking 27 years since it was introduced... and we, as dungeon master's, have no idea what the "true purpose" Myrkul built the wall for is.

And this does not appear to be a situation like the Mourning in Eberron, where the intent is to allows the DM to make their own call, and DMs have been repeatedly told that. This is just... a question mark. Our only information says that the "true purpose" is punishing those who do not worship the Gods. That is it. If there is meant to be something else... well, three editions later in that game we still don't have any indication that there is a different purpose.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Yeah, 2e was weird. Then again, it took out all the archdevils/demon lords until later in the run with Planescape. I was never interested in Planescape, so I have no idea what happened to them then.
They were pretty much as they are now, though I don't know how many ended up with stats in 2e. I know most of the archdevils did at some point but not sure about the demon lords. From memory, none of them could grant spells without a divine patron. Otherwise, apart from not being gods, I don't think the descriptions were that much different.
 

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