Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

I have a problem with this line of thought, especially in the context of DnD.

DnD is a game, and I as the DM have to know the answers to the big questions of the setting. If there is a reason for something, I need to be the person who knows the reason.

"No one is allowed into the Catcombs beneath the castle" is something I can tell my players, and they don't have to know why, they can just assume it is for good reason. But, as the DM, I need to know why. Because some NPCs need to know why. If there is a Demon Lord in those Catacombs, then I need to know it exists, or I can't run the game properly. And if it is sealed, I need to know how to break that seal, because that is a goal of some of the antagonists.


So, as the DM, if I have the Wall of the Faithless.... I need to know why it exists. Because saying that the "gods see much more than I do" when I determine what those gods see in the first place, is nonsense.

And, if a player came to me after their character found out about the wall, and asked me if there was a reason for it, and my answer was "No, it is only there to make the Faithless suffer for their lack of worship" then that player suddenly has a problem. Their cleric, who might be kind and merciful, now either much reject the gods who approve of such torture, or come to the conclusion that people who commit a high enough crime, like being Apostates, deserve torturous punishment.

Either way, this could ruin a character. And sure, maybe the character could just take it on faith, but the player now knows that their character is deluding themselves. Which is also a problem.


So, the solution would be to not tell the players, but then... what is the point of a setting element that no one ever sees, hears about, or interacts with.

And, this isn't a case where a canonical answer does not exist, one does exist. The gods want to make the Faithless suffer for their lack of worship. That is the reason, canonically, that the wall exists.
My post was mainly in regard to the Cataclysm of Dragonlance, of which I'm more familiar, though not an expert. Of the FR "Wall of the Faithless" I know little or nothing. The setting, to me, is such a hotchpotch of different philosophies and building blocks as to be quite a mess.

I will say that there seems to be a big difference between "No one is allowed to go into the Dungeon" and a very esoteric question of the fate of the certain souls in the afterlife. The former is likely to come up in play, either by the players themselves trying to enter the forbidden area (IME, nothing gets some players more interested in doing something or going somewhere that is 'forbidden'), or defending it; the later is more a complex issue of a PC's faith, beliefs and motivation. You present the options as absolute, a kind and merciful PC must either reject the gods or view this as a just punishment of apostates. It could be that this is just how some people or scholars interpret things, or how some sects translate ancient scripture. They don't know for sure what really happens. Or it could be that this is the default fate of Souls in eternity and, the gods, in their mercy, are able to save some souls if they dedicate themselves to them. Perhaps they don't make the rules, but must work within them. There were plenty of similar dichotomies in medieval Christianity, which supposedly espoused kindness and mercy as well.

I do disagree with the notion that the DM's needs to know everything; especially about esoteracisms as this. This requirement, in essence, requires the DM to be god, and that leads to more problems, imho. Sure, if the DM presents a Chekhov's Gun of a sealed Dungeon Door, he better be prepared with more information about the Who, What, Why for play. But if we're getting into deep questions on theory of existence and the afterlife, then maybe its time to take a step back and refocus. At least, that's my take, I guess I'm more in it for bashing a few monsters and getting some nice trinkets and a good tale to tell along the way type of guy though, ymmv.
 

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And that is a problem. The earliest source for the wall I can see was '93, so we are talking 27 years since it was introduced... and we, as dungeon master's, have no idea what the "true purpose" Myrkul built the wall for is.

And this does not appear to be a situation like the Mourning in Eberron, where the intent is to allows the DM to make their own call, and DMs have been repeatedly told that. This is just... a question mark. Our only information says that the "true purpose" is punishing those who do not worship the Gods. That is it. If there is meant to be something else... well, three editions later in that game we still don't have any indication that there is a different purpose.
Eh, I'm okay with things in the (published) campaign that aren't explained well, or at all. What was Myrkul's true purpose in building the Wall of the Faithless? I'm okay not knowing the official answer to that. This particular nugget isn't likely to impact gameplay in any FR game I run (or play in), and I can figure it out as necessary if and when it does.

I'm even OK with setting up mysteries with no answers (yet) in a homebrew campaign, as in your "no one is allowed in the catacombs beneath the castle" example. Again, there IS a reason, even if as the DM I haven't figured it out yet. I'll worry about it when I need to. World-building can be detailed upfront before player's encounter the world, but it can also grow organically with the story improvisationally.
 


They were pretty much as they are now, though I don't know how many ended up with stats in 2e. I know most of the archdevils did at some point but not sure about the demon lords. From memory, none of them could grant spells without a divine patron. Otherwise, apart from not being gods, I don't think the descriptions were that much different.
Contrary to popular belief, 2E did not do away with archdevils and demon lords, even before Planescape rolled around. It just didn't have an entirely consistent take on them.

As early as DMGR4 Monster Mythology, several demon lords were presented as full deities, including Yeenoghu, Juiblex, and Demogorgon, though several others were missing. Oddly, other demon lords such as Graz'zt (who turned up in Planescape's Planes of Chaos boxed set) would be presented as non-divine entities, but who were able to grant lower-level clerical spells to worshipers.

The archdevils (that is, the Lords of the Nine) were a bit trickier. Insofar as I'm aware, they only received stats in an article titled, appropriately enough, "The Lords of the Nine" in Dragon magazine #223 (November, 1995). It treats them as not being gods, and says that they can't grant spells (which keeps in accordance with what Planescape laid down, e.g. their entry in On Hallowed Ground, since the article was written by Planescape developer Colin McComb; the whole thing honestly seemed like material cut from the Planes of Law boxed set), but expressly says that the stats it provides are for their "avatars." It also only does this for the first eight of them, saying that the identity and abilities of the "Dark Lord of Nessus" (the lowest layer of Hell) were unknown.

However, Geryon, one of the Lords of the Nine in 1E who was deposed by the time 2E rolled around, was given stats directly (with no mention of avatars) in A Paladin in Hell, with the same being true for Moloch in The Apocalypse Stone (possibly because of their fallen status, though that's speculative).

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.
 
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My post was mainly in regard to the Cataclysm of Dragonlance, of which I'm more familiar, though not an expert. Of the FR "Wall of the Faithless" I know little or nothing. The setting, to me, is such a hotchpotch of different philosophies and building blocks as to be quite a mess.

I will say that there seems to be a big difference between "No one is allowed to go into the Dungeon" and a very esoteric question of the fate of the certain souls in the afterlife. The former is likely to come up in play, either by the players themselves trying to enter the forbidden area (IME, nothing gets some players more interested in doing something or going somewhere that is 'forbidden'), or defending it; the later is more a complex issue of a PC's faith, beliefs and motivation. You present the options as absolute, a kind and merciful PC must either reject the gods or view this as a just punishment of apostates. It could be that this is just how some people or scholars interpret things, or how some sects translate ancient scripture. They don't know for sure what really happens. Or it could be that this is the default fate of Souls in eternity and, the gods, in their mercy, are able to save some souls if they dedicate themselves to them. Perhaps they don't make the rules, but must work within them. There were plenty of similar dichotomies in medieval Christianity, which supposedly espoused kindness and mercy as well.

I do disagree with the notion that the DM's needs to know everything; especially about esoteracisms as this. This requirement, in essence, requires the DM to be god, and that leads to more problems, imho. Sure, if the DM presents a Chekhov's Gun of a sealed Dungeon Door, he better be prepared with more information about the Who, What, Why for play. But if we're getting into deep questions on theory of existence and the afterlife, then maybe its time to take a step back and refocus. At least, that's my take, I guess I'm more in it for bashing a few monsters and getting some nice trinkets and a good tale to tell along the way type of guy though, ymmv.

Well "everything" is a bit much, I don't expect DMs to know the last names of merchants, or their family ties, but I do think that if you have a merchant quarter burn down, you need to know who started the fire. You correctly, I think, labeled this as Chekhov's Gun.

The Wall exists, and if it never comes up in play, it may as well not exist. But, the moment it comes into play, it has the potential to be something that is going to Matter.

And the Cataclysm is a perfect counter-example to this.

What happened with the Cataclysm? A giant flaming mountain fell on some people because of the Gods actions. Why did they do it? Well, they give us a few reasons, a bit of a mix and a match, but at the end of the day it is agreed that the gods felt that those individuals did something worth punishing. I personally like the version where the Religious Leader tried to summon one of the Gods. That is an act of hubris I can see causing Divine Wrath.

But, what about the Wall?

Well, it isn't a one time thing. It is a constant punishment. And it didn't start at the start of creation, it was explicitly created by Myrkul, who became a god around -3,700 DR. And why did he create it? We are told it was to punish the people who did not worship the gods.

But, unlike with the Cataclysm, where we could see this single moment, there are a lot of problems that start cropping up. Kelemvor is now the god of the Dead. It is within his power to destroy the wall. We are told he doesn't, because the other gods would stop him from doing it.

But, Corellon Larethian, the creator of Elvish souls existed as far back as -14,000 DR, nearly ten thousand years before Myykul. Why did he allow Myrkul, this new upstart, to create a way to destroy Elvish souls? We don't know.

Why did the even older gods, because we now the planet existed at least as far back as -37,000 DR, not stop him? We don't know.

And we know they could have, because the evil and neutral gods of Today can stop Kelemvor from tearing it down.

And, one thing we have been told is that maybe AO wants the wall, to punish mortals who don't worship the gods. But, there is a small problem with that. AO changed the universe to make mortal worship neccessary to the Gods existence as a punishment to the Gods.

So, we have AO making it so that if the Gods ignore their worshippers, they are punished by a loss of power. But, if the worshipers don't worship... they are destroyed for all time by the Wall... on AO's decree? Thereby circumventing the requirement that the Gods actually need to pay attention to their followers, because all the Gods need to do know is say that if you don't worship them you are destroyed utterly, and then they can go back to ignoring them.

Which is where we come back full circle to people claiming that "we don't know the true reason". That the Wall wasn't created to punish non-worshippers, it serves some other purpose... but we aren't told what that purpose is. If there is another purpose, we as the DM need to be told. We need to know that there is a second purpose. But as it stands, we are just assuming there has to be a second purpose, because the reasoning we have been given makes no sense.

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Eh, I'm okay with things in the (published) campaign that aren't explained well, or at all. What was Myrkul's true purpose in building the Wall of the Faithless? I'm okay not knowing the official answer to that. This particular nugget isn't likely to impact gameplay in any FR game I run (or play in), and I can figure it out as necessary if and when it does.

I'm even OK with setting up mysteries with no answers (yet) in a homebrew campaign, as in your "no one is allowed in the catacombs beneath the castle" example. Again, there IS a reason, even if as the DM I haven't figured it out yet. I'll worry about it when I need to. World-building can be detailed upfront before player's encounter the world, but it can also grow organically with the story improvisationally.

Sure, and I don't want to sound like I'm against improvisational stuff. I do that sort of thing all the time, but in a homebrew game, I still know the answer as the DM.

I might not have written it yet, but I am still the one who knows the answer when the players crack open that door and start going where they should not go.

And, like I said, The Mourning in Eberron is a mystery. No one knows why it happened, and there is no official answer. It is meant to be filled in by the DM, and I'm fine with that.

But, the Wall of the Faithless is not like that. We have an answer. The wall was built to punish those who did not worship the Gods. The problem is, that answer causes so many problems, that we have to step in and say "oh no, that isn't the real reason. "

Well, if there is a real reason, we need to know what it is. If there isn't a second reason, then we have this laundry list of problems.



I think what is comes down to is, presentation. The Wall is presented to us in such a way to break the setting. The more you dig into it, the more ridiculous it becomes. But, something like the Mourning is explicitly part of the setting, and there are many possible answers, all of which make sense within the setting, and all of them dealing with different themes you might want to explore. One works with the setting, the other against it.
 

Myrkul, who became a god around -3,700 DR.
This date is highly inaccurate. Myrkul, along with Bane and Bhaal, became a god when Jergal willingly surrendered most of his godhood to them. While no explicit date has ever been provided for this event, sources such as Arcane Age: Netheril: Empire of Magic suggest that Jergal remained undiminished through the end of Netheril, which happened in -339 DR. Moreover, the adventure "Monument of the Ancients" in Dungeon magazine #170 (January, 2009) referenced Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal as still being mortal in -357 DR when they defeated Maram of the Great Spear.

That adventure also gave us Myrkul's mortal name: Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm.

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.
 
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Well "everything" is a bit much, I don't expect DMs to know the last names of merchants, or their family ties, but I do think that if you have a merchant quarter burn down, you need to know who started the fire. You correctly, I think, labeled this as Chekhov's Gun.

The Wall exists, and if it never comes up in play, it may as well not exist. But, the moment it comes into play, it has the potential to be something that is going to Matter.

And the Cataclysm is a perfect counter-example to this.

What happened with the Cataclysm? A giant flaming mountain fell on some people because of the Gods actions. Why did they do it? Well, they give us a few reasons, a bit of a mix and a match, but at the end of the day it is agreed that the gods felt that those individuals did something worth punishing. I personally like the version where the Religious Leader tried to summon one of the Gods. That is an act of hubris I can see causing Divine Wrath.

But, what about the Wall?

Well, it isn't a one time thing. It is a constant punishment. And it didn't start at the start of creation, it was explicitly created by Myrkul, who became a god around -3,700 DR. And why did he create it? We are told it was to punish the people who did not worship the gods.

But, unlike with the Cataclysm, where we could see this single moment, there are a lot of problems that start cropping up. Kelemvor is now the god of the Dead. It is within his power to destroy the wall. We are told he doesn't, because the other gods would stop him from doing it.

But, Corellon Larethian, the creator of Elvish souls existed as far back as -14,000 DR, nearly ten thousand years before Myykul. Why did he allow Myrkul, this new upstart, to create a way to destroy Elvish souls? We don't know.

Why did the even older gods, because we now the planet existed at least as far back as -37,000 DR, not stop him? We don't know.

And we know they could have, because the evil and neutral gods of Today can stop Kelemvor from tearing it down.

And, one thing we have been told is that maybe AO wants the wall, to punish mortals who don't worship the gods. But, there is a small problem with that. AO changed the universe to make mortal worship neccessary to the Gods existence as a punishment to the Gods.

So, we have AO making it so that if the Gods ignore their worshippers, they are punished by a loss of power. But, if the worshipers don't worship... they are destroyed for all time by the Wall... on AO's decree? Thereby circumventing the requirement that the Gods actually need to pay attention to their followers, because all the Gods need to do know is say that if you don't worship them you are destroyed utterly, and then they can go back to ignoring them.

Which is where we come back full circle to people claiming that "we don't know the true reason". That the Wall wasn't created to punish non-worshippers, it serves some other purpose... but we aren't told what that purpose is. If there is another purpose, we as the DM need to be told. We need to know that there is a second purpose. But as it stands, we are just assuming there has to be a second purpose, because the reasoning we have been given makes no sense.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sure, and I don't want to sound like I'm against improvisational stuff. I do that sort of thing all the time, but in a homebrew game, I still know the answer as the DM.

I might not have written it yet, but I am still the one who knows the answer when the players crack open that door and start going where they should not go.

And, like I said, The Mourning in Eberron is a mystery. No one knows why it happened, and there is no official answer. It is meant to be filled in by the DM, and I'm fine with that.

But, the Wall of the Faithless is not like that. We have an answer. The wall was built to punish those who did not worship the Gods. The problem is, that answer causes so many problems, that we have to step in and say "oh no, that isn't the real reason. "

Well, if there is a real reason, we need to know what it is. If there isn't a second reason, then we have this laundry list of problems.



I think what is comes down to is, presentation. The Wall is presented to us in such a way to break the setting. The more you dig into it, the more ridiculous it becomes. But, something like the Mourning is explicitly part of the setting, and there are many possible answers, all of which make sense within the setting, and all of them dealing with different themes you might want to explore. One works with the setting, the other against it.
There is a thread - just down-page as I write this - by an EnWorld poster who is reading all the FR novels. He might have come across material about the Wall of the Faithless and be able to point you to "from the horse's mouth" source(s).
 

This date is highly inaccurate. Myrkul, along with Bane and Bhaal, became a god when Jergal willingly surrendered most of his godhood to them. While no explicit date has ever been provided for this event, sources such as Arcane Age: Netheril: Empire of Magic suggest that Jergal remained undiminished through the end of Netheril, which happened in -339 DR. Moreover, the adventure "Monument of the Ancients" in Dungeon magazine #170 (January, 2009) referenced Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal as still being mortal in -357 DR when they defeated Maram of the Great Spear.

That adventure also gave us Myrkul's mortal name: Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm.

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.

Ah, I was basing my information off of the Forgotten Realms Wiki, and assuming the oldest possible date for Myrkul's ascension. Since he ascended during the existence of the Netherese Empire I place him near the start of the Empire.

But, if they were still mortal by -357 DR... well that just proves my point even more, by making them over three thousand years younger than I was projecting.

Thank you for the clarification.
 

Anyone thought about that whatever the deities did to the faithless before the wall was just as unfair and horrible?

Maybe Myrkul didn't etablish a cruel punishment where there was none before, he just put up the fall as a mostly automatic process of punishment because he was too lazy to do the former, more work intensive, stuff
 

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