Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

[doctorbadwolf]

Because you can believe in something and serve cause of a n alignment king, or simply belief system. All the souls are picked over by agents from all the gods and others. The only ones going to be judged are the one who never supported any cause that would get the attention of any of all thise other powers. Kelemvor gets the cast offs as it were then retools them into something useful to him. You have to be completly useless. I read it as if you believed in nothing and tried to do nothing you are rewarded by becoming nothing.

That is evil. A farmer that never does anything more noteworthy than running their farm shouldn't be punished for never having "done anything".

That is truly, egregiously, evil.

Edit: And I still don't see how you got that from the text. It just says "false and faithless". It doesn't say that people who do cool things are picked up by the gods.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Point of clarification: which text was that?

I remember seeing it in one of the linked texts from the Wiki, but I have not been able to find it again. The Wiki does credit him though.

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I don't agree, I think it makes perfect sense. Ao's will is to have a symbiotic relationship between mortals and gods. If we can agree that this is his objective, the wall and the "mortal worship required rule" work well in unison.

The wall makes sure that mortals have a strong incentive to pick a diety, any diety. Only the most diehard god-haters will be faithless as long as the wall exists.

The "mortal worship required rule" makes sure worshippers are very valuable for gods, and that dieties are in competition for mortal worship.
If a god just goes "eh, I don't need to care about my worshippers, the wall will ensure they don't become faithless", guess what happens? People will stop worshiping that particular god, and they'll start flocking to some other god, one that gives a crap about them.
So the lazy god loses power, and the active god ascends to higher divine ranks.

It works like a competitive market! The wall ensures there is a demand, and the gods are in competition to provide a supply.

I think you are missing a key element here. Mortals have no option to choose none of the above. They have no way to pressure all of the gods. They need to worship a god, any god, and so they will pick "the best of the worst" and there is no incentive for that God to change their ways to become better.

And, over time, AO's system creates either an Oligarchy (if a group of gods can cooperate) or a monopoly, and at that stage... there is no incentive left for the gods to improve. It is choosing the only game in town.

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Because you can believe in something and serve cause of a n alignment king, or simply belief system. All the souls are picked over by agents from all the gods and others. The only ones going to be judged are the one who never supported any cause that would get the attention of any of all thise other powers. Kelemvor gets the cast offs as it were then retools them into something useful to him. You have to be completly useless. I read it as if you believed in nothing and tried to do nothing you are rewarded by becoming nothing.

This is not supported by the story of Cyric and Kelemvor.

"During the process, Adon (Kelemvor and Mystra's mutual friend, as well the patriarch of Mystra's new church) was driven mad by Cyric's trickery, losing his faith in Mystra, and had died a faithless soul. Mystra came to Kelemvor and asked for Adon's soul, which Kelemvor steadfastly refused since Adon was now one of the Faithless, or perhaps even the False. This, along with Kelemvor's loss of passion, eventually caused the breaking up of their relationship."

The Faithless are not those that have done nothing with their lives, they are those who do not worship the Gods. And Kelemvor in his role as judge is supposed to shove them in the wall, even if they spent most of their life worshipping the gods and were just driven mad by another god in the process.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I remember seeing it in one of the linked texts from the Wiki, but I have not been able to find it again. The Wiki does credit him though.

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I think you are missing a key element here. Mortals have no option to choose none of the above. They have no way to pressure all of the gods. They need to worship a god, any god, and so they will pick "the best of the worst" and there is no incentive for that God to change their ways to become better.

And, over time, AO's system creates either an Oligarchy (if a group of gods can cooperate) or a monopoly, and at that stage... there is no incentive left for the gods to improve. It is choosing the only game in town.

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This is not supported by the story of Cyric and Kelemvor.

"During the process, Adon (Kelemvor and Mystra's mutual friend, as well the patriarch of Mystra's new church) was driven mad by Cyric's trickery, losing his faith in Mystra, and had died a faithless soul. Mystra came to Kelemvor and asked for Adon's soul, which Kelemvor steadfastly refused since Adon was now one of the Faithless, or perhaps even the False. This, along with Kelemvor's loss of passion, eventually caused the breaking up of their relationship."

The Faithless are not those that have done nothing with their lives, they are those who do not worship the Gods. And Kelemvor in his role as judge is supposed to shove them in the wall, even if they spent most of their life worshipping the gods and were just driven mad by another god in the process.

Exactly.

There's a reason that ancient Greek playwrights were sometimes accused of blasphemy for their portrayal of the gods. Ultimately, most people expect their gods to be basically decent and fair, on some level.

The Wall makes either all the gods evil, the system in which the gods operate evil and thus the good gods fairly useless and unworthy of worship, or Ao evil and in need of destruction and the gods potential allies in that goal, or else collaborators and overseers of a system of evil.

 

[Alzrius]

I remember seeing it in one of the linked texts from the Wiki, but I have not been able to find it again. The Wiki does credit him though.

Would you mind linking to where it does?

This is not supported by the story of Cyric and Kelemvor.

"During the process, Adon (Kelemvor and Mystra's mutual friend, as well the patriarch of Mystra's new church) was driven mad by Cyric's trickery, losing his faith in Mystra, and had died a faithless soul. Mystra came to Kelemvor and asked for Adon's soul, which Kelemvor steadfastly refused since Adon was now one of the Faithless, or perhaps even the False. This, along with Kelemvor's loss of passion, eventually caused the breaking up of their relationship."

The Faithless are not those that have done nothing with their lives, they are those who do not worship the Gods. And Kelemvor in his role as judge is supposed to shove them in the wall, even if they spent most of their life worshipping the gods and were just driven mad by another god in the process.

This is a reference to the events of Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. As such, it's helpful to look at the original text.

From chapter 39:

"She cannot answer her worshipers." Kelemvor made no effort to explain further, for he knew Adon's mind had been touched by Cyric, and that mere words could not undo the cunning of the One. "And it is not my place to aid the Faithful of another god. I sent for you only because your prayers have made you one of the Faithless – perhaps even one of the False, as you have tried to subvert the worship of Mystra. Before naming your punishment, I shall have to decide which one you are."

From chapter 43:

"I cannot bring him to you." Kelemvor pointed through the crystal wall, down to a huge crowd of souls awaiting judgment outside his palace. "Adon stands in line."

"Line?" Mystra pressed her face to the crystal and peered into the shadowless gray light of the City of the Dead. Even to a goddess, the throng was too distant to discern a single soul. "You're making Adon stand in line?"

"Of course. He rejected you in life; that makes him one of the Faithless. Moreover, he begged me to steal your worshipers from the Fugue Plain, and that makes him one of the False."

"But Adon is insane!" Mystra whirled on Kelemvor. "You understand that better than anyone."

"I must hold even the insane responsible for their choices." Kelemvor stared down at the throng. His eyes could see individual souls no better than Mystra, but he knew which speck was Adon: the one at the end of the line. "If I do not punish the insane when they turn from their gods, then half of Faerun will go mad. Too many mortals are too lazy to pay their gods the proper worship."

 

[Olrox17]

I think you are missing a key element here. Mortals have no option to choose none of the above. They have no way to pressure all of the gods. They need to worship a god, any god, and so they will pick "the best of the worst" and there is no incentive for that God to change their ways to become better.

And, over time, AO's system creates either an Oligarchy (if a group of gods can cooperate) or a monopoly, and at that stage... there is no incentive left for the gods to improve. It is choosing the only game in town.

But Ao has proven that he cares about keeping the system balanced. When the gods got uppity, he had no qualms punishing them severely (the time of troubles) and setting harsher rules for them (the "mortal worship required rule").

It stands to reason that, if Ao's "competitive capitalist prayer market" ever ends up becoming an oligarchy or a monopoly, he would intervene once again, whipping godly transgressors as he sees fit and introducing new rules where needed.

 

[Iry]

That is evil. A farmer that never does anything more noteworthy than running their farm shouldn't be punished for never having "done anything".

That is truly, egregiously, evil.

True egregious evil is maintaining a "balance" where evil must exist in sufficient quantity to entertain the powers above AO. There is certainly some leeway, but you cannot better the world too much or higher powers will smack you down.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Would you mind linking to where it does?

This is a reference to the events of Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. As such, it's helpful to look at the original text.

From chapter 39:



From chapter 43:

That is grim. And stupid. People can't just choose to go mad. It's needlessly cruel and unjust. "Neutral" my ass. That paints Kelemvor as evil.

True egregious evil is maintaining a "balance" where evil must exist in sufficient quantity to entertain the powers above AO. There is certainly some leeway, but you cannot better the world too much or higher powers will smack you down.

Like I said, the system is evil.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Would you mind linking to where it does?

This is a reference to the events of Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. As such, it's helpful to look at the original text.

From chapter 39:



From chapter 43:

Here is the Wiki page I've been referencing Wall of the Faithless

I remember at the start of the conversation I pulled those texts in the bibliography and I thought I saw it mentioned in one of those, but I don't remember which one and I haven't been able to find it in a quick scan again.


Also, Chapter 43 there really drives this point home. Even if your blasphemy is because of madness infected into you by a god of madness, then you are still to be judged and punished as either False or Faithless.

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But Ao has proven that he cares about keeping the system balanced. When the gods got uppity, he had no qualms punishing them severely (the time of troubles) and setting harsher rules for them (the "mortal worship required rule").

It stands to reason that, if Ao's "competitive capitalist prayer market" ever ends up becoming an oligarchy or a monopoly, he would intervene once again, whipping godly transgressors as he sees fit and introducing new rules where needed.

Which seems rather short-sighted when instead he could do what he did for tens of thousands of years and just let the Mortals worship those who they felt were worth worshipping.

Honestly, it isn't like mortals are bad at devotion. We are really, really good at it. We have millions of people following cult leaders world wide, if literal Gods can't do better than a single charismatic man or woman, then they deserve to fade into nothing.

 

[Olrox17]

Which seems rather short-sighted when instead he could do what he did for tens of thousands of years and just let the Mortals worship those who they felt were worth worshipping.

Honestly, it isn't like mortals are bad at devotion. We are really, really good at it. We have millions of people following cult leaders world wide, if literal Gods can't do better than a single charismatic man or woman, then they deserve to fade into nothing.

It's difficult to say to how us, human mortals from Earth, would act if placed in a D&D world.
On one hand, the gods there are provably real, on the other, they're flawed polytheistic gods, not perfect beings. They're often former mortals.
On one hand, great magic power can be obtained by serving the gods, on the other, it can also be obtained by studying the arcane arts, making eldritch pacts, or just by being charismatic performers. You can obtain demigod-level power without ever caring about the gods.

I do think that the setting makes enough sense as is. I think it's a believable fantasy setting.
Could the writers just say "screw it, from now on faithless mortals aren't punished, and that won't have far-reaching consequences because the faithless are going to be few and far between, anyway"? Sure, they could if they wanted to. At some point during 4e, the writers pretty much deleted more than half of the FR pantheon, because they felt like streamlining the setting was a good idea. They can do whatever they want.

My question is, would removing the wall make for a better setting? I'd argue that it wouldn't.

The wall of faithless is an element of lore that makes the Realms more interesting and unique. The setting would be lessened, not improved, by its removal. And really, why remove it? What do we gain by removing the wall? I know what we would lose: a fascinating piece of lore and a number of interesting plot hooks.

 

[Alzrius]

Here is the Wiki page I've been referencing Wall of the Faithless

That page seems to indicate that the only source suggesting that Myrkul built the Wall is Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer.

While I don't want to start a debate on what is and isn't canon, I will note that the wiki's policy toward the game is that it is, largely for lack of being told otherwise. Personally, I'm a bit more skeptical; while I haven't played the game, the lack of a single definitive ending (since the game has several depending on the choices you make) and lack of reference in any first-party sourcebooks, magazines, or novels (that I'm aware of) strikes me as notable. Similarly, the game has you speaking to Myrkul's consciousness in his god-corpse on the Astral Plane at one point, even though Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (affiliate link) says that he transferred his consciousness to the Crown of Horns after Midnight slew his avatar.