Dragonlance [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?

[humble minion]

But how is it unjust? Anymore than the king saying pay this tax or go to jail?

A 'lawful' good deity will, being lawful, have a codified body of doctrine and theology etc about what is just and what isn't and how to tell the difference. Each lawful good deity will use that doctrine to make their own decisions on whether the Wall is justified or not, and if so, how best to oppose it. And of course, not all LG deities will agree on the matter...

 

[Zeromaru X]

We are talking about Lawful Good deities, not Lawful Neutral. They also care about things like compassion and mercy, not only about justice. They can argue about wether a law is just or not, but you can be sure that one of their main concerns, one were all would agree, would be if such law is compassionate or not.

And the Wall fails in that regard.

 

[Olrox17]

We are talking about Lawful Good deities, not Lawful Neutral. They also care about things like compassion and mercy, not only about justice. They can argue about wether a law is just or not, but you can be sure that one of their main concerns, one were all would agree, would be if such law is compassionate or not.

And the Wall fails in that regard.

Well, Kelemvor himself is Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good

 

[Mirtek]

If Myrkul was still in charge and everyone agreed the Wall was bad, but it was his domain and AO prevents direct interference between domains, then it would be INTERESTING.

Well, it's Kelemvor in charge, he is not a good guy and while AO doesn't prevent direct interference any direct interference by the deities of good (aka assault on Kelemvor in his divine realm, as you agree it's not really opposable on the mortal coil) would lead to an apocalyptic battle (even before some of the evil and neutral deities join the fray) and thus is unfortunately off the table.

So yes, the deities keeping an eye out for a promising mortal strike team is an interesting campaign idea (even though if it's kind of a rehash from MotB)

" Some are charged with serving as guides for other lost souls." This gives us a set of souls who are guides and organizers for the dead, who are almost free agents of the afterlife. Interesting things can be done with that instead of having a big Wall in the middle of nowhere, doing nothing except torturing people.

That's not being free agents, that's still being forced into servitude at Kelemvor's behest. So the fate of those who refused to serve the gods if to serve the god of dead. Well, at least they're not annihilated I guess.

That's also already one of the possible fates that awaits the false. So we're already having a lot of souls being forever stuck in and around the fugue plane performing such menial task at Kelemvor's degree.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, it's Kelemvor in charge, he is not a good guy and while AO doesn't prevent direct interference any direct interference by the deities of good (aka assault on Kelemvor in his divine realm, as you agree it's not really opposable on the mortal coil) would lead to an apocalyptic battle (even before some of the evil and neutral deities join the fray) and thus is unfortunately off the table.

So yes, the deities keeping an eye out for a promising mortal strike team is an interesting campaign idea (even though if it's kind of a rehash from MotB)

See, "Kelemvor isn't Good" (which he was) isn't the same as "Myrkul is an evil and sadistic diety seeking to spread fear of death in all mortal hearts for his own enjoyment"

Kind of like saying that "The Joker" and "Catwoman" are equivalent, because Catwoman isn't necessarily good. There is a space on the chart between Good and Evil.

So, why does Kelemvor keep using an evil torture device devised by a sadistic god who wanted nothing more than to spread dread, terror and despair? The lulz?

That's not being free agents, that's still being forced into servitude at Kelemvor's behest. So the fate of those who refused to serve the gods if to serve the god of dead. Well, at least they're not annihilated I guess.

That's also already one of the possible fates that awaits the false. So we're already having a lot of souls being forever stuck in and around the fugue plane performing such menial task at Kelemvor's degree.

One: "Guiding Lost Souls" doesn't sound like a menial task to me.

Two: "Charged with" could be very different than "forced into Servitude". Just because you are given a job doesn't mean that you do it. Or that it is all you do.

Three: While it was a fate, it wasn't a fate for the False to my knowledge. And really, I'm curious who would be a) not picked up by a god b) Not False c) Not Faithless under the structure of the wall. That seems like an incredibly narrow section between "everyone who worships the gods" and "everyone who does not worship the gods or actively betrays them"

Four: Not sure why being stuck forever in the Fugue Plane is being brought up. Stuck forever in the afterlife is kind of the definition of being dead. And having free agency to do things compared to being tortured unto destruction seems like a better deal.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, Kelemvor himself is Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good

Then what is the lawful justification of the use of Myrkul's torture device?

"Well, the previous administration instituted this policy of fear and torture for his own sadistic amusement. I'm not amused, I do not want to spread fear, but the torture part is established so I guess I have to do it. Can't just go back to the older laws before that clearly non-lawful being changed everything."

 

[Alzrius]

See, "Kelemvor isn't Good" (which he was)

Not really. In FRE1 Shadowdale, his alignment is Lawful Neutral. The same is true in FRE2 Tantras. It's only in FRE3 Waterdeep that his alignment is listed as being "Lawful Neutral (good)."

After that, such as in his divine entries in Faiths & Avatars and Faiths and Pantheons, his alignment is back to being Lawful Neutral without a parenthetical qualifier.

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.

 

[Zsong]

I have zero problem with the wall of the faithless. It sounds like something that would exist in old pagan religions. Very fitting in my opinion for someone creating a setting that is not based on modern theology

 

[Zeromaru X]

Well, Kelemvor himself is Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good

I was not talking about Kel. I was answering to the hypothesis that the Lawful Good gods would argue if the Wall was just or not, but here people only see the "lawful" part of Lawful Good. That's why I mentioned that they would also care about stuff like if the nature of punishment is really according to the nature of the "crime". Faithless do exist in the rest of the multiverse, and there is no punishment for them there. And the gods also depends on worship for power and sustenance in other worlds. And many gods of the Realms are multispheric and know about this fact.

So, the most likely answer of the Lawful Good deities is that the Wall is a harsh punishment for a not that harming crime (because, if it was a harming crime, something would already have happened in the multiverse because of Faithlessness; and nothing has happened).

Now, all defaults to whatever Kelemvor wants to do with the Wall. The Lawful Good deities have nothing to do with it. But, if they at least had voiced their concerns, I won't feel as if the Good gods of the Realms are all a bunch of hypocrites...

 

[Zeromaru X]

I have zero problem with the wall of the faithless. It sounds like something that would exist in old pagan religions. Very fitting in my opinion for someone creating a setting that is not based on modern theology

Thing is, the Wall was not created by Ed Greenwood (who has voiced that he also dislikes the Wall, as it messes up with the idea he had of how the afterlife in the Realms should work). It was an addendum of some author of the novels for some reason.