D&D 5E Soulknife Knack problems (Is it incredibly powerful?)

[Valdier]

So reading through the Soulknife I noticed, the can use this, anytime they fail an ability check. If they succeed they spend the point, if they fail they don't.

As a DM, how will you handle this?

Some examples:
"I search for a secret door" "You don't find anything, but... you know you failed, do you want to spend a die?" (They now know there is a secret door they didn't find)
"I would like to roll insight to see if they are being truthful" "You aren't sure... but you know you failed, spend a die?"
Perception checks (they know something is hidden so now it's time to alert everyone that something is hidden nearby)
Social checks (they immediately know if their deception worked or they are caught), etc...

Does this ability interfere with any mystery since they automatically know if they succeeded or failed in a roll?

How will you handle this and/or am I reading this wrong?

 

[NotAYakk]

Easy: Treat not finding anything when there is nothing to find as not a success.

"I search for a secret door", "You don't find anything". "I use my knack", ... "+4", "nope, still didn't find anything".

They keep their die, because they didn't succeed afterwards (or, they succeeded no more than they did before).

The die is not expended. The die only becomes expended if the die converts a failure into a success.

If you want a RAW: Rolling it when you have "already succeeded" is (a) against the rules, (b) doesn't consume any resources. The player tries to use their knack. The DM tells the player to roll the die, looks at the result, and says "no change". The character didn't actually use the knack (they where not allowed to), but the player doesn't know that.

"Roll a die pointlessly, no change" is no different than "use knack, no change" from the in-game fiction perspective.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Easy: Treat not finding anything when there is nothing to find as not a success.

"I search for a secret door", "You don't find anything". "I use my knack", ... "+4", "nope, still didn't find anything".

They keep their die, because they didn't succeed afterwards (or, they succeeded no more than they did before).

The die is not expended. The die only becomes expended if the die converts a failure into a success.

If you want a RAW: Rolling it when you have "already succeeded" is (a) against the rules, (b) doesn't consume any resources. The player tries to use their knack. The DM tells the player to roll the die, looks at the result, and says "no change". The character didn't actually use the knack (they where not allowed to), but the player doesn't know that.

"Roll a die pointlessly, no change" is no different than "use knack, no change" from the in-game fiction perspective.

Either this, or just set a high DC 20 or 25 to allow the soul knife to be sure that there is no secret door or trap to find. So a success. Expend the die. I do it for others characters too. A high roll that does nothing seems pointless, so make failure a success.

 

[Valdier]

Easy: Treat not finding anything when there is nothing to find as not a success.

"I search for a secret door", "You don't find anything". "I use my knack", ... "+4", "nope, still didn't find anything".

They keep their die, because they didn't succeed afterwards (or, they succeeded no more than they did before).

The die is not expended. The die only becomes expended if the die converts a failure into a success.

If you want a RAW: Rolling it when you have "already succeeded" is (a) against the rules, (b) doesn't consume any resources. The player tries to use their knack. The DM tells the player to roll the die, looks at the result, and says "no change". The character didn't actually use the knack (they where not allowed to), but the player doesn't know that.

"Roll a die pointlessly, no change" is no different than "use knack, no change" from the in-game fiction perspective.

That is a way to handle it, except under the ability it specifically says, "you can spend a die when you fail a roll". So... they know when they failed and succeeded?

 

[Iry]

"Make an insight check."
"This is important to my character, so I use the knack if I fail."
"Got it. Go ahead and roll."

 

[Valdier]

"Make an insight check."
"This is important to my character, so I use the knack if I fail."
"Got it. Go ahead and roll."

I get that as an option, but that isn't how it works. If you fail, you can spend a die, you don't declare it ahead of time, anymore than you declare shield ahead of time. You get to know before you try to spend it that you failed RAW.

 

[NotAYakk]

That is a way to handle it, except under the ability it specifically says, "you can spend a die when you fail a roll". So... they know when they failed and succeeded?

Again, it doesn't say "you know if you failed".

The basic game loop:
1) Player describes what the PC wants to do.
2) DM tells Player to roll dice. (optional)
3) DM describes results in the world.

1a) "I want to search for secret doors"
2a) "Roll a d20, add your intelligence(investigation) modifier" -- player rolls a 17.
3a) "You didn't find any doors".

Now, 2a can happen either if there is a 25 DC door there, or there is no door there at all. In one case they are searching for a DC 25. In the other, the DM is getting the player to roll some dice with no impact at all.

Or it was a DC 10 check to think there was no door there (on a 10 or under, you'll falsely think there is a secret door somewhere, but you will be wrong).

1b) "I want to use my knack on that search".
2b) "Ok; roll your psionic talent die" - player rolls a 4.
3b) "Your die is not expended. You still didn't find any doors."

Now, 2b can happen if either there is a DC 25 door there, or there is no door there at all. In one case the DM is getting the player to use a psi talent die to see if they hit DC 25 total, in the other they are getting the player to roll some dice with no impact at all.

Or it was a DC 10 check to think there was no door there (on a 10 or under, you'll falsely think there is a secret door somewhere, but you will be wrong). In this case, the psi die roll was again pointless; here, the DM told the player to roll the psi die, despite not being able to use the knack ability, because the player doesn't know if they can use the knack ability.

Spoiler

The in-world effects of "cannot use knack ability" and "knack ability isn't sufficient to generate a success" are indistinguishable in-world. The DM is free to tell the player information that isn't available in-world, but the DM is not obliged to do so.

Same stuff. Difference? die size.

If the DM doesn't want the player to know if they succeeded/failed on the first check, they just don't tell the player. They tell the player what the character learned.

Now, you are free to tell the player "that was a success", but that is up to you as a DM.

There is no "greyed out knack" button or a "beep" sound when you try to press the "use knack" and it doesn't work.

 

[jgsugden]

For every ability check, the DM decides which of the six abilities is relevant to the task at hand and the difficulty of the task, represented by a Difficulty Class. The more difficult a task, the higher its DC. The Typical Difficulty Classes table shows the most common DCs.... To make an ability check, roll a d20 and add the relevant ability modifier. As with other d20 rolls, apply bonuses and penalties, and compare the total to the DC. If the total equals or exceeds the DC, the ability check is a success — the creature overcomes the challenge at hand. Otherwise, it's a failure, which means the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM.

Under the RAW:

For every ability check there is a DC. The DM may allow a partial success if the DC is not met, but there is one DC that determines success.

After the ability check, the DM determines if it is a failure. There is no place where the DM tells the player it was a failure.

If the player is a Soulknife and has dice available, they can elect to roll a die when they have a failure. If the additional die makes it a success, then the die is used up. If not, the die is not used up.

This is how I see it all playing out.

Bob says he wants to look around to see if anything out of the ordinary is there. The DM asks for a Widsom (Perception) roll. Bob rolls and gets a 22 total.

The DM had set a DC 23 to see the invisible creature standing by the table. As he was very close, the DM gives Bob a hint that there is an invisible creature, there, but does not tell him he detected an invisible creature. "Bob, everything seems normal at first, but a flicker of movement catches your eye on the table. It looks like a piece of parchment on the table was blown by the wind... but there is no wind inside that you can feel."

Bob failed the roll because he did not meet the DC. He might think he made the roll because he saw something. He might think he failed because what he saw was not particularly revealing. Either way, he can ask to use his knack.

The DM will tell him to roll. In this instance, any roll will make it a success, and he'll be told of the invisible creature. The DM will tell him a die has been used and reveal the location of the invisible creature.

In a slightly different scenario, where there is no invisible creature in the room, but merely a breeze blowing into the room from under the table, a roll of 15 might be all that was necessary to note paper moving. Bob's 22 that tells him the paper is moving might be a total success. If Bob asks to use the die, the DM can tell him to roll the die, and then tell him he saw nothing additional and not to subtract a die.

 

[Valdier]

Again, it doesn't say "you know if you failed".

Yes, it does. It literally says it in black and white.

The basic game loop:
1) Player describes what the PC wants to do.
2) DM tells Player to roll dice. (optional)
3) DM describes results in the world.

No, that's not what's written. They can only spend the di when they fail a check. The DM MUST tell them for them to spend the die.

1a) "I want to search for secret doors"
2a) "Roll a d20, add your intelligence(investigation) modifier" -- player rolls a 17.
3a) "You didn't find any doors".

And the DM has to tell them, right then, if they failed or not, so they can choose to then spend the die.

Now, 2a can happen either if there is a 25 DC door there, or there is no door there at all. In one case they are searching for a DC 25. In the other, the DM is getting the player to roll some dice with no impact at all.

So will you have the player continuously roll an infinite set of dice in every room just to "screw with their" power? Do you do this to every other skill in your game? That must be a fun game.

Or it was a DC 10 check to think there was no door there (on a 10 or under, you'll falsely think there is a secret door somewhere, but you will be wrong).

1b) "I want to use my knack on that search".
2b) "Ok; roll your psionic talent die" - player rolls a 4.
3b) "Your die is not expended. You still didn't find any doors."

That isn't what the rules say. I'm not sure you have read it at this point.

Now, 2b can happen if either there is a DC 25 door there, or there is no door there at all. In one case the DM is getting the player to use a psi talent die to see if they hit DC 25 total, in the other they are getting the player to roll some dice with no impact at all.

Nope, not how it works. Only if they fail.

Or it was a DC 10 check to think there was no door there (on a 10 or under, you'll falsely think there is a secret door somewhere, but you will be wrong). In this case, the psi die roll was again pointless; here, the DM told the player to roll the psi die, despite not being able to use the knack ability, because the player doesn't know if they can use the knack ability.

Yes they do.

If the DM doesn't want the player to know if they succeeded/failed on the first check, they just don't tell the player. They tell the player what the character learned.

Again, literally against the printed rules.

Now, you are free to tell the player "that was a success", but that is up to you as a DM.

There is no "greyed out knack" button or a "beep" sound when you try to press the "use knack" and it doesn't work.

But see, that isn't what the rules say happens. I get it that it makes a great house rule to fix it, but it isn't what the rules say like even a little.

Psi-Bolstered Knack. When your nonpsionic training fails you, your psionic power can help: if you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with
which you have proficiency, you can roll one Psionic Energy die and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning failure into success. You expend
the die only if the roll succeeds.

This doesn't say "you spend a die every time a breeze goes by", it says, "If you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with which you have proficiency, you can roll a die".

The only means by which this triggers is when the DM says "You made a roll and failed the check". The player then has the choice to spend a die on that same ability check. They know if there roll was a success or failure, it's black and white in the rule for Knack. There is no room for interpretation around that unless, the DM is making a house rule to do so.

It is a binary switch. If X, then Z. If Y, then no Z.

If the player says "I want to search for a secret door" the DM sets a DC, the player rolls. The DM says if it was a success or failure. Period, because the player then gets to make a choice, WHEN the DM says they failed (the only time they can spend a psionic die by the rules).

This inherently tells them, there is a secret door present, or else the DM is saying there is a continual infinite DC for all walls without secret doors, to "NOT" find one. So, you are either creating a new rule specifically to stop this power, or, they know they failed the roll and something is likely there.

That is incredibly powerful.

 

[Valdier]

Under the RAW:

For every ability check there is a DC. The DM may allow a partial success if the DC is not met, but there is one DC that determines success.

After the ability check, the DM determines if it is a failure. There is no place where the DM tells the player it was a failure.

Except factually under the Knack write up, it explicitly says it does.