D&D 5E The problem with 5e

[DND_Reborn]

So much of this is also about honesty in our goals.

Sure. When Joe and I worked out Mortality our goal was a challenging game where it was more true to real life in that going into battle was a scary and likely deadly affair. That being said, often people would seek to capture/ransom/etc. enemies instead of just kill them, but death in battle happened and was often abrupt. It created a game that was more role-playing focused because combat could easily turn into a course of action you truly regretted.

Personally, my take on DMing is to pose a serious challenge to the PCs where good thinking and planning, and a bit of good luck, should win the day. But there is the side where the players have to be smart enough and realistic enough to understand "some threats are beyond us" and avoid them or flee. PCs are by no means invincible or assured of a win!

Exactly my thoughts. I want the decision to have real and potentially deadly consequences. What I do not want is that through no fault of their own, a group TPK simply because the the game became so swingy that a simple critical could kill a mid to high level character in one shot.

I played Role Master enough to understand that players want a challenge but do not like to die through extreme bad luck. Dying because you made poor decisions is quite ok. Dying because the DM got an incredibly lucky roll... not so.

I agree with much of this, too, but with one significant difference-- I am quite okay with a single PC dying because of bad luck, just as a single PC can turn the tide of battle and win with a single stroke of good luck. But, what I am opposed to is an entire TPK because of bad luck. I will "defeat" the party in such cases (have them captured or something) and allow them the chance to save themselves later, but yeah a full TPK just due to bad rolls is a poor way to end a campaign.

 

[Oofta]

Is deadliness really the issue? Or is it burnout on a version of the game combined with nostalgia rose tinted glasses? I mean, I remember Conan the Barbarian movie being awesome. Went back to watch it again and ... not so much.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Exactly my thoughts. I want the decision to have real and potentially deadly consequences. What I do not want is that through no fault of their own, a group TPK simply because the the game became so swingy that a simple critical could kill a mid to high level character in one shot.

I played Role Master enough to understand that players want a challenge but do not like to die through extreme bad luck. Dying because you made poor decisions is quite ok. Dying because the DM got an incredibly lucky roll... not so.

Exactly though it can happen. I hit my brothers PC with a goblin shaman’s inflict wounds at 1st. Ouch.

I was feeling bad about it when I realizes he was an aasimar. I had not told them he had died so not retconning when I found he had resistance to necrotic damage!

phew!

Anyway, we have made some bad decisions before...deck of many things, etc.

I had a ranger try to get buddies out of catacombs full of ghouls. Yeah, noble but I asked for it.

when i ask for it, I want it to happen...

it helps if the dm describes the scene well or offers clues so you can bug out as appropriate. And if you “roll the dice” literally and figuratively? Let them fall where they may...

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Is deadliness really the issue? Or is it burnout on a version of the game combined with nostalgia rose tinted glasses? I mean, I remember Conan the Barbarian movie being awesome. Went back to watch it again and ... not so much.

What?! Are you sure you don’t mean Conan the destroyer?!

 

[Helldritch]

Personally, my take on DMing is to pose a serious challenge to the PCs where good thinking and planning, and a bit of good luck, should win the day. But there is the side where the players have to be smart enough and realistic enough to understand "some threats are beyond us" and avoid them or flee. PCs are by no means invincible or assured of a win!


I agree with much of this, too, but with one significant difference-- I am quite okay with a single PC dying because of bad luck, just as a single PC can turn the tide of battle and win with a single stroke of good luck. But, what I am opposed to is an entire TPK because of bad luck. I will "defeat" the party in such cases (have them captured or something) and allow them the chance to save themselves later, but yeah a full TPK just due to bad rolls is a poor way to end a campaign.

Again, I agree with much of it. But what I don't want to see is a X level PC dying from a single arrow shot by a low level opponent because of a crit hit that did 1000 damage as I once saw.

A bad roll or rolls, I/we can live with. But I want decisions to matter more than luck. Luck can swing a battle, of course, and it is a good thing. I don't want to be always sure of an outcome. But I don't want to see my players die just because I got max damage on 10d6... and critter for triple damage on a surprise roll either...

And @Oofta Dont you dare speak against Conan... It is the bestest movie evar....

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Is deadliness really the issue? Or is it burnout on a version of the game combined with nostalgia rose tinted glasses? I mean, I remember Conan the Barbarian movie being awesome. Went back to watch it again and ... not so much.

I don’t think it can be burnout really. We have not played enough 5e to make it so sadly.

most of us have kids/spouses. My kids are still pretty young.

side note though is that I played my first D&D session with grade school aged son.

he marvels at my minis and is allowed to play with them very very very carefully. And not my 30 dollar ones!

my older child also conned me out of a t-Rex mini from fangs and talons. I mean give me a few years. When I am old and Infirm they will inherit my paper and plastic empire!

I remind them that they will one day be in charge of these toys....just not yet!

there is one dwarf, er middle aged
Guy in Moria, I mean the household that still draws breath!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Is deadliness really the issue? Or is it burnout on a version of the game combined with nostalgia rose tinted glasses? I mean, I remember Conan the Barbarian movie being awesome. Went back to watch it again and ... not so much.

In many ways it isn't about "deadliness" exactly but more about "challenge", but unfortunately in a combat-heavy style of game the two are closely linked. I think in 5E the design decision about easy healing is a big part of it, why going to the gritty variants for rest can make such a big difference in the game.

Dude, I still love Conan the Barbarian! "CROM!"

 

[DND_Reborn]

Again, I agree with much of it. But what I don't want to see is a X level PC dying from a single arrow shot by a low level opponent because of a crit hit that did 1000 damage as I once saw.

A bad roll or rolls, I/we can live with. But I want decisions to matter more than luck. Luck can swing a battle, of course, and it is a good thing. I don't want to be always sure of an outcome. But I don't want to see my players die just because I got max damage on 10d6... and critter for triple damage on a surprise roll either...

Well, for D&D (in any edition I know of anyway), unless you are using house-rules, critical hit tables, or the like, IME you really shouldn't experience such things. shrug Otherwise, I have to assume you are exaggerating for emphasis?

And @Oofta Dont you dare speak against Conan... It is the bestest movie evar....

Yeah, you tell him, @Helldritch!

 

[Oofta]

Again, I agree with much of it. But what I don't want to see is a X level PC dying from a single arrow shot by a low level opponent because of a crit hit that did 1000 damage as I once saw.

A bad roll or rolls, I/we can live with. But I want decisions to matter more than luck. Luck can swing a battle, of course, and it is a good thing. I don't want to be always sure of an outcome. But I don't want to see my players die just because I got max damage on 10d6... and critter for triple damage on a surprise roll either...

And @Oofta Dont you dare speak against Conan... It is the bestest movie evar....

Yeah, who can forget the scintillating dialog ... all 5 of Arnie's lines were amazing.

So obviously I was thinking of another movie.

 

[jasper]

Damn. Sounds pretty tough!

Early levels?

All the levels but light on the tier 4 due to no many modules.
Edit just did the math. 269 sessions 88 kills. 3.056181818 ratio