D&D 5E What is the appeal of the weird fantasy races?

[Gammadoodler]

It goes to RP.

Think back to Fellowship of the Ring. The Inn of the Prancing Pony. The bartender had to bend over the bar to see the hobbits. Or your other example - DEX checks for humans to avoid tripping over halfling-appropriate barstools.

Again, think back to the beginning of the movie. Gandalf bumps his head on a ceiling beam. This wasn't even scripted; it was McKellan accidentally bumping his head on the hobbit-sized set. Why keep it? Why have that flub? Because it established the size difference.

Would I have a halfling roll for every interaction in a goliath bar? Probably not. But there may very likely be one to add flavor - to establish that the character is physically out of place. Why would I make a centaur roll dice to traverse stairs? It's difficult terrain for him. He's not simply any other character who has a some bonus abilities. He's a character who is going to likely have difficulty interacting with some parts of the environment. It's one of the aspects of his Equine Build.

Oh, I totally get what you're trying to do and I appreciate that thought process. And if these checks appear to be equitably distributed and adjudicated, (and used sparingly) maybe that's all right.

That said, there is a number of barstool or stair-related checks, beyond which I'd likely invite you to screw yourself.

 

[Maxperson]

They are the only official rules for playing a centaur, so they’re the only playable centaur rules we can reasonably discuss. No one is interested in discussing whether a thing makes sense with your personal homebrew centaur that will never actually exist.

Sure, but the discussion would only apply to centaurs in those specific settings. In a discussion about centaurs in general, those rules only serve as a good place to start the discussion. They can't be assumed to be the default in say the Forgotten Realms.

 

[Maxperson]

That's all fine for you. But discussing what a centaur should be able to do based on what you've already decided they can do is begging the question for you and does nothing for me.

It's no different than discussing what a centaur should be able to do based on what a setting has already decided they can do.

In a discussion about what centaurs should be able to do, both sides are valid in the discussion, not just YOUR side. If all you want to consider is your side, why even be here taking part?

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I would add that having been “that” DM in the past, DMs tend to vastly overrate how awesome their stories are and how important it is that certain things remain secret from players.

This has been my biggest growth as a GM in the past few years. I was playing a one-off game with an old high school buddy at a convention and first thing he did in combat was lay out all the ACs and defense numbers for the bad guys for us to view as players. I asked him about it, it seemed odd, and he said "The more information you have as a player, the better you can interact with the game."

It was kind of an epiphany for me.

Since then I have realized that anything kept secret is something that doesn't exist to the players. Some super cool secret the bad guys are doing behind the scenes may as well not even be written if you don't share that knowledge with the players. When I started sharing the knowledge proactively (by having cut scenes for the bad guys, or just making it more commonly known) the players got WAY more engaged and hooked into the plot. I will never play Secret GM again, its a totally different and improved game.

The two co-GMs at my table do NOT embrace this, and now I find myself frustrated constantly by trying to immerse myself in their story only to be told over and over again "You don't know that", "Nobody knows that", and "They don't know anything" when my character tries to engage.

 

[Remathilis]

Is it okay for a halfling to not be able to reach the top shelf?

Well, considering a standing jump is 3 + Str mod and you can grab things equal to 1 1/2 times your height, even a 10 strength hobbit can leap and reach a 7.5' foot tall shelf with no check.

If you make it known ahead of time that the campaign is going to be pirate themed and that centaurs can't climb the rigging and that will potentially be an issue is it mean spirited?

I'm sorry, when did we get on a boat? I don't recall pirate game being part of the discussion, but assuming it was and your not shifting goalposts, a centaur can do plenty of things that don't involve the rigging: surgeon, navigation, swabbing the deck, etc.

If the ruling is clearly laid out ahead of time does it matter? Does the DM have to change the environment or planned encounters to allow every PC to contribute?

Again, we're discussing "oh, you want to climb the stairs at the inn? Make a dex check or fall" as the point. It's a big jump from "a centaur might have trouble navigating in my game" "roll to do anything but stand on flat land".

if a PC doesn't have ranged attacks in my game, there are going to be times when they sit on the sidelines. It's one of the reasons I made bows finesse so strength based PCs have a decent option. However if they don't buy that bow it's not my responsibility to make sure they have good options every encounter.

Ranged attacks aren't remotely equal, unless a centaur can buy a tool that gives him free mobility. (Hmm, I'm starting to think that combat wheelchair IS a good idea...)

If the DM is springing this on the player, it's on the DM. If they've made the ruling clear I don't see it that way. Again, this goes back to personal preference and how you want to handle such things. I lean more towards the "more-or-less reality with magic".

My point is that the DM is abusing the rules to penalize that player. It's on par with making a PC roll climb checks (DC 5) to climb a rope ladder because there is still a chance PCs could fall. Or DMs making PCs roll Con checks to not drown the minute they hit the water even though a PC can hold his breath for 1+ Con mod minutes.

Don't use the dice to be a dick.

 

[Oofta]

Well, considering a standing jump is 3 + Str mod and you can grab things equal to 1 1/2 times your height, even a 10 strength hobbit can leap and reach a 7.5' foot tall shelf with no check.



I'm sorry, when did we get on a boat? I don't recall pirate game being part of the discussion, but assuming it was and your not shifting goalposts, a centaur can do plenty of things that don't involve the rigging: surgeon, navigation, swabbing the deck, etc.



Again, we're discussing "oh, you want to climb the stairs at the inn? Make a dex check or fall" as the point. It's a big jump from "a centaur might have trouble navigating in my game" "roll to do anything but stand on flat land".



Ranged attacks aren't remotely equal, unless a centaur can buy a tool that gives him free mobility. (Hmm, I'm starting to think that combat wheelchair IS a good idea...)



My point is that the DM is abusing the rules to penalize that player. It's on par with making a PC roll climb checks (DC 5) to climb a rope ladder because there is still a chance PCs cloud could fall. Or DMs making PCs roll Con checks to not drown the minute they hit the water even though a PC can hold his breath for 1+ Con mod minutes.

Don't use the dice to be a [emoji1658].

Ever tried high jumping to get something from the top shelf? Good luck with that. In any case, I was asking about limitations that affect PCs of all kinds.

So I'll keep the question simple. If the DM is clear up front about issues that could arise in certain situations (or if it's obvious to everyone including the player) based on a PC choice, is it the DM's responsibility to ensure that those situations never arise?

Yes, this is a broader concept than the centaur climbing the stairway. I'm trying to have a discussion about D&D, responsibilities and best practice: if the player knows ahead of time that their PC has limitations, it's not up to the DM to avoid situations where the PC is going to be disadvantaged. Yes or no.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Sure, but the discussion would only apply to centaurs in those specific settings. In a discussion about centaurs in general, those rules only serve as a good place to start the discussion. They can't be assumed to be the default in say the Forgotten Realms.

I really think you are putting the proverbial cart before the half-horse here. Or perhaps you can cite for us where WotC says that player race descriptions in setting specific books only apply to those particular settings? I'm thinking that's more about how you like to think about those rules. Happy to be corrected if that really is the official ruling for WotC's publications.

I'd say the RAW player race descriptions in any official WotC publication are the assumed default rules for any D&D 5e campaign. That is, until we hit Session 0 where the DM gets to lay out the parameters of their homebrew world or whatever official setting they are running. If the DM then says, in Session 0, "We're only using books A and B for races" or has some otherwise good reason to ban or alter or add a race for the campaign, well then, now everyone is in the cart together and can decide together whether they all like the fringe on top - or not.


Honestly, IMO, any amount of DM homebrew tinkering with what a player race (or class or background) can or cannot do will only lead to confusion and more work down the line. Better to just ban a race than set up a possible situation where the DM needs to remind the table several sessions into the campaign about how to operate their characters according to the DM's homebrew race rules. IME, some players have a hard enough time remembering the RAW of character spells and abilities - it's not worth my effort, or the table's time, to create exceptions to those rules.

 

[jasper]

How do you feel about AL games limiting player options?

I love it.
says the AL only DM.

 

[jasper]

That isn't a DM, it's an organization. By definition, the relationship is impersonal, and its requirements are expected to be unilateral, absolute, and (in general) obdurate. But an AL game is also one where almost nothing we've discussed applies. You don't get this incredible hard work invested by the DM because these are prewritten modules in extant settings. You don't get grand DM "vision" because the adventure path is already set. Many of these choices are, formally speaking, out of the AL DM's hands. E.g. I imagine Maxperson would actively avoid running AL games, because Dragonborn officially exist in the Forgotten Realms and thus it is impossible for him to truly enjoy himself when running that world "as written." Several other settings also officially include them or an equivalent (Eberron, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, obviously 4e's World Axis), so organized play is almost unavoidably tainted for Max.

Unlike Maxperson, I do enjoy playing AL games. Why? Unlike Oofta I have given up yelling "NO DROW" in my games due to other players not compromising over it. But. I can keep a table going even if the adventure path is a C or B module instead an A+ private campaign. If the game goes south I can always blame the module.

 

[Mecheon]

There is no old or new guard on here. Nor is there new or old thinking. I have mentioned this before, but I've ran the high school D&D club in several schools for quite a while now. They play whatever they want, until the DM has an idea for their world, and then they don't play whatever they want. It literally is that simple. One DM had an idea that they were all half-orcs, captured after a long war. They started on a prisoner ship. The players all made half-orcs. Simple. No fuss. No mess. The other table had every race under the sun - because the DM didn't set a restriction.

The races getting the callouts are specifically those newer races though. Therein lies the thing.

Numbers show that Tieflings are stupid popular and Dragonborn have their fans. Yet, those are specifically the races being called as 'the weird fantasy ones' despite the clear popularity of them

If we were talking 'weird races' like those weird 'let's attempt to replicate the gith's success' attempts from late 3.5E that eventually lead to the Shadar-kai, well, those ones were weird and I can understand a thread like this when we're talking about beings forming shells of the Far Realm to stop themselves from disintergrating in the atmosphere of our world or god-denying lizardmen. But.... We're talking Tabaxi and Tortles, who've been around since 2E, and Dragonborn, a mechanically weak race who've had their building blocks in play for yonks. Its always these ones that cause problems and not the 'Let's explore the consequences of a vastly increased lifespan' that elves have simply because there's been so much written on elves over time so people have had time for that to sink in.